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View Full Version : Ladies, your posts are certainly thought provoking. Tell your opinion of Obama/Biden


Florida Cindy
08-25-2008, 04:09 AM
Ladies, your posts are certainly thought provoking. Tell your opinion of Obama/Biden running for office and who you think Mc Cain will pick for a running mate?

pewtertm
08-25-2008, 04:51 AM
Tell your opinion of Obama/Biden running for office

Mama always said if you can't say anything nice...let's just say I'm not a fan of either one of them, as I am a social conservative and they are not.

As far as McCain...I don't know who he's going to select, but I'd like to see Joe Liebermann get the nod. It'd be nice to see an independent in there for once.

ckugrad
08-25-2008, 04:52 AM
too liberal for me! I'm "the Evangelical South" voter! LOL!

nikkiARNGwife
08-25-2008, 04:58 AM
too liberal for me! I'm "the Evangelical South" voter! LOL!


Ditto! lol

alamama
08-25-2008, 05:04 AM
I don't really like McCain, but he is the better choice. Obama is downright Socialist and well, I will stop there. Running mate for Mcain? Genkel (sp.), Thompson. I don't thnk he'd win a Liberman ticket.

RatherBscrappin
08-25-2008, 05:20 AM
I'll preface my post with ... I'm so far right I squeak! :)

So, the Obama/Biden ticket doesn't do it for me ( and probably never would) --- too elitist, too liberal, too socialist.

txmusicmom
08-25-2008, 05:22 AM
I think the ticket is just GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it gives McCain a very good chance of winning!

saxon
08-25-2008, 05:22 AM
Well - I was all for Obama until he picked Biden... now, his voice of change seems to be rhetoric - Biden is ANYTHING but change. :( Very disappointed in how this is all turning out this year.

nikkiARNGwife
08-25-2008, 05:44 AM
I think the ticket is just GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it gives McCain a very good chance of winning!


lol! I sure hope so! :)

Flatlander
08-25-2008, 05:51 AM
Both party's candidates, with or without their running mates, scare the h - e - double - toothpick out of me.....

scrapyardkath
08-25-2008, 05:55 AM
Can't be Liberal enough for me, I am for Obama & Biden.

jeepmama
08-25-2008, 05:59 AM
Both party's candidates, with or without their running mates, scare the h - e - double - toothpick out of me.....

Ditto, my fellow North Carolinian...same with the state races, too. Can we get one more negative ad, please??? :p

I say we kick them all out of office and start with a clean slate of fresh faces.... LOL! :D

Flatlander
08-25-2008, 06:03 AM
Ditto, my fellow North Carolinian...same with the state races, too. Can we get one more negative ad, please??? :p

I say we kick them all out of office and start with a clean slate of fresh faces.... LOL! :D

I thought Chicago/Illinois politics were bad. The good ol' boy network here in NC wins hands down. I so totally agree - it is time to clean out the state house.....:lol

Kater07
08-25-2008, 06:16 AM
I don't know squat about Biden, but I'm a liberal, and I'm dreading this race. I just don't want another crappy 4-8 years.

I like Obama. I think that we're pretty close right now on how I feel about the issues. I feel that with McCain in office, women are in serious trouble. Wanna see your rights go away? Nothing like big brother in your doctor's office.

I plan to do more research into Biden. Other than being anti-choice, Biden doesn't seem like a horrible candidate at this time.

I'd be sorely disappointed if Lieberman aligned himself with McCain. He was my choice 2 elections ago, and I can't imagine him and McCain. I would lose my faith in Lieberman if he ran with someone who is so far removed from how I feel on the issues that are important to me.

txmusicmom
08-25-2008, 06:17 AM
I say we kick them all out of office and start with a clean slate of fresh faces.... LOL! :D

YEP!!! TERM LIMITS FOR CONGRESS!!!

Heather Manning
08-25-2008, 06:29 AM
I think the ticket is just GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it gives McCain a very good chance of winning!

:lol That's EXACTLY what I was going to say. I have no idea who McCain is going to pick either.

But I kind of agree with the analysts who are saying, it really doesn't matter who the VP pick is. We (as a country) usually vote for the main guy on the ticket. Although, I do think if he would have picked Clinton, that would have been a completely different story.

I was rolling when every news article I read yesterday analyzing this said, "and he talks to much" about Biden. :lol I'm no one to judge about talking to much though. I tend to do that myself. :lol

Microferk ~ Miki Ferkul
08-25-2008, 06:43 AM
Can't be Liberal enough for me, I am for Obama & Biden.

Ditto= I've always liked Biden so this was a pleasant surprise for me.

Gayle
08-25-2008, 07:05 AM
Ditto= I've always liked Biden so this was a pleasant surprise for me.

Me too!

Scorpiosue1102
08-25-2008, 07:32 AM
It's funny, I used to be a Republican up until about oh, six years ago. I'm now firmly a Democrat. We're in a war that has no end at this point and Russia is just ramping up, analysts say the housing market is in a recession and possibly a depression, the economy is not much better, we are SOOOO dependent on foreign oil, and so much more. Our country needs change and not someone who doesn't have a problem with us being in Iraq for another 100 years. I know I don't want my five year old in Iraq come thirteen more years. Ok, rant over LOL.

I do not hate McCain, but I liked the maverick McCain. I don't care how many houses McCain has, but seriously.....you can't remember how many houses you have? Also, his new attack on Obama and him getting his house with help from Rezko is plain false i.e. www.factcheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org) which is unbiased.

I think Joe Biden is a smart choice. He has some good ideas. He also knows national security and is known to listen to people even though he's been in politics for about forever.

Kater07
08-25-2008, 07:37 AM
Biden is a family mad, too! His family is important to him, and it shows. I like a man who's unafraid to say that he loves his kids and really mean it. I'm tired of people showing off their family just to show they have a family not because that family MEANS anything.

vegaschristina
08-25-2008, 07:59 AM
One issue that is important to Nevada is Yucka Mountain and the nation's nuclear waste depository. A depository that we don't want. We don't have nuclear energy in Nevada, so all of the waste will have to be trucked in from other states. McCain is all for opening Yucka Mountain, which, by the way lies on a fault line, Obama is against it. The kicker for me is...McCain is willing to put the nation's nuclear trash less than 100 miles from my home, but he's not even willing to let it be trucked thru his home state of Arizona.

So...why is it safe enough to be near my children for all of eternity but it's not safe enough to even be driven thru his home state?

For the first time in my life, I've actually made a financial contribution to a presidential candidate, and it is my fervent hope that Obama will keep McCain out of the white house, away from deciding about Yucka Mountain, and out of say for what happens in my body.

I am proudly supporting Obama, and I hope that each of you that is considering voting for McCain, please read Obama's book The Audacity of Hope. It's very eye-opening. He actually says in his book things that I've said for years. I finally feel like there's a politician I can fully support as opposed to supporting the lesser of 2 evils.

If McCain has a book explaining his positions, I'd be glad to read it so that I can be fully informed. I rarely go to the candidate's websites because usually, they're just whatever message they want me to hear today, ya know?

Sharia Braxton
08-25-2008, 08:07 AM
I'm proudly sporting and supporting Sen Obama....although i'm not excited about his views on immigration and border control (which i'm fairly to the right about)

interesting post. i blogged about my thoughts on it this morning. i'll give you the post here:

excerpt: ...and what a CHOICE for a VP - Joe Biden. Such a different person than Sen. Obama...so not-laid back. I do wonder what this means for the campaign here on out...because even though I believe Sen. Obama still tries to be Mr. Above Board in the political arena, it's hard to do so. Joe Biden, from all observations, is totally outspoken and well...hey....guess we'll see.

Davita
08-25-2008, 08:14 AM
I don't know squat about Biden, but I'm a liberal, and I'm dreading this race. I just don't want another crappy 4-8 years.

I like Obama. I think that we're pretty close right now on how I feel about the issues. I feel that with McCain in office, women are in serious trouble. Wanna see your rights go away? Nothing like big brother in your doctor's office.

I plan to do more research into Biden. Other than being anti-choice, Biden doesn't seem like a horrible candidate at this time.

I'd be sorely disappointed if Lieberman aligned himself with McCain. He was my choice 2 elections ago, and I can't imagine him and McCain. I would lose my faith in Lieberman if he ran with someone who is so far removed from how I feel on the issues that are important to me.

I am in agreement with you. I just don't know how we could face another 4 to 8 years of what we have now. It really scares me to think about it. Ditto on the Lieberman issue as well.

shoebootie
08-25-2008, 08:19 AM
Since the beginning of this race, I've tried to keep an open mind about both candidates. Having originally been from NY and having lived through the Clinton scandals, like the rest of the nation, I knew there was no way I wanted Clinton in the White House nor anywhere near it. I was thrilled when she lost her parties nomination.

On to Obama ... Not really knowing anything about him, I felt I needed to research him, so off to the library I went and picked up his books to read. If I got a email with a negative spin, I made the effort to see what the truth was.

I'll be honest, I live in AZ now and have voted for McCain each election. I honestly like the man. (I'm not thrilled with the reporters hanging around here when he's staying in his house near here so they can report on his trips to Starbucks though, lol.) TBH, there are things that scare me. His age weighs heavily on me, so I'm seriously going to have to do some heavy duty research on who he picks as his running mate because chances are, we could potentially end up with that person in office at some point. I don't particularly care for some of his stances either.

Overall, I feel like I'm in a rock and a hardspot. Obama is a likable guy, but my pocket can't afford Obama. We're just making ends meet. His changes would cripple us. McCain on the other hand has ideas, but he still has to deal with Congress which at the moment is democratic and he, I feel, would be more open to being reigned in. I don't get that impression from Obama.

So, the bottom line is, I'm waiting to see who McCain chooses for his running mate.

PaulaM
08-25-2008, 08:47 AM
I do NOT like (or trust) Obama and I do NOT support him.

However, being a Nevada resident, I do NOT like McCain and his views on Yucka Mountain. He is willing to let that trash be dumped in my state VERY close to where I live yet he can't even let it be transported through his state. That says a LOT about him.

So, I guess what I am saying here is that I plan to WRITE in a name because I can't in good conscience vote for either one of the dumbbell choices that we have to choose from.

DawnMarch
08-25-2008, 08:50 AM
Well, honestly, I feel like the Republicans (i.e., George Bush) have basically ruined this country in the past 8 years -- both financially and morally (letting big business run amok, weakening all of our environmental laws, forcing government scientists to recite Bush's political agenda or be fired, firing attorney generals who were also didn't agree with Bush politics, lying about the very foundations of a war that has killed thousands of our brave soldiers and wasted BILLIONS of dollars that could have been used here in the US rather than in Iraq). I couldn't possibly vote for a Republican this year after the outrageous travesty of the last 8 years.

txmusicmom
08-25-2008, 08:53 AM
Housing Market--- As a society we have gone way over board as to what we expect in housing.........real estate agents always show the houses that are really out of our pocketbook range..........Yes on paper I might be able to afford a bigger house- but there is no way I could afford to heat/cool/maintain it. I blame the banks/lenders for agreeing to these loans.

We are way too dependent on foreign oil--but face it we're way too dependent on the good ole credit card..........Most Americans tend to live above their means.......with little or no savings..... so when prices rise- which they always do..........OUCH!

I'm still toting my prepaid cell phone.........$15 a month.......
We spend so much money to entertain ourselves......cable, cell phone, computers ( HEY we love that one.. hee hee) when we need to first put bread on the table and pay our bills....

Remember growing up without cellphones, VCR, DVD ?? There is just so much to *buy* these days.

Iraq- we still have soldiers in Germany and various places around the world, so we will have soldiers in Iraq for a long time.......just not in current numbers.......

Financially the last 8 years have been good to us as far as taxes-- we get a nice return .......plus the child credit ! Of course rising prices in health care, etc......ate that up.....

I don't want the government to take care of me.......or control me.......or take my money to give to others.........I work hard........I do share and give........but it's my choice.........

Off the soap box- .......:blush :blush :blush

mama_pajama
08-25-2008, 08:55 AM
Overall, I feel like I'm in a rock and a hardspot. Obama is a likable guy, but my pocket can't afford Obama. We're just making ends meet. His changes would cripple us. McCain on the other hand has ideas, but he still has to deal with Congress which at the moment is democratic and he, I feel, would be more open to being reigned in. I don't get that impression from Obama.

I'm confused, and I'm hoping you can clear it up for me. From everything I've read or heard, Obama would lower taxes for everyone but the wealthy, with a few exceptions (I've seen the figure of $250,000+ per year as the definition of 'wealthy'). While I'm sure it's possible to be 'just making ends meet' with an annual income of $250,000, I don't want to make assumptions about your personal income. So I'm wondering, do you have other information that indicates that Obama will be raising taxes for lower and middle income people? I know that's the impression that McCain has been giving, but the facts aren't backing him up.

kjbstevens
08-25-2008, 08:56 AM
I'm very, very pro McCain. My main issue when looking at anything is supporting our family. Obama would end up costing us more taxes for less benefits.

Chreamps
08-25-2008, 09:11 AM
I'll vote for Obama/Biden ticket. Our country needs a change - for the better!

Heather Manning
08-25-2008, 09:23 AM
Well, honestly, I feel like the Republicans (i.e., George Bush) have basically ruined this country in the past 8 years -- both financially and morally (letting big business run amok, weakening all of our environmental laws, forcing government scientists to recite Bush's political agenda or be fired, firing attorney generals who were also didn't agree with Bush politics, lying about the very foundations of a war that has killed thousands of our brave soldiers and wasted BILLIONS of dollars that could have been used here in the US rather than in Iraq). I couldn't possibly vote for a Republican this year after the outrageous travesty of the last 8 years.

Dawn, you know I love you, right. LOL I don't want you to think I'm picking on you. (I'm always worried I'll step on toes with my thoughts. LOL) Just had to give my opinion on this. :)

Republicans have 1 guy (2 if you count Cheney) in major control in this country. They control congress, they control the majority of the states ( think I read something like 30 of the 50), the majority of the counties, the major cities all have democratic mayors. One guy doesn't have so much control that he ruins everything. Democrats have to take some of the blame for the mess we are in in my opinion. I'm not saying republicans are perfect, because I think they have screwed up too, but democrats have helped make the bed we are lying in.



I don't want the government to take care of me.......or control me.......or take my money to give to others.........I work hard........I do share and give........but it's my choice.........


This is how I feel too.

shoebootie
08-25-2008, 09:29 AM
I can see where we need change, but not all at once. So, I'll start with these. When I use the term "my pocket", I'm also referring to the escalating debt of this country. Someone's going to have to pay the piper at some point and guaranteed, it's not going to be just corporations (who BTW have been going elsewhere and taking their jobs with them) and it's not going to be just the rich. I have to watch for my DD's future as well and what we don't pay for will land on her shoulders as a taxpayer, KWIM?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/09/AR2008080901860_pf.html

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13698

http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspot.com/2008/03/detailed-analysis-of-barack-obamas.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/18/at-what-cost-obama/

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_inflated_health_savings.html

I'm confused, and I'm hoping you can clear it up for me. From everything I've read or heard, Obama would lower taxes for everyone but the wealthy, with a few exceptions (I've seen the figure of $250,000+ per year as the definition of 'wealthy'). While I'm sure it's possible to be 'just making ends meet' with an annual income of $250,000, I don't want to make assumptions about your personal income. So I'm wondering, do you have other information that indicates that Obama will be raising taxes for lower and middle income people? I know that's the impression that McCain has been giving, but the facts aren't backing him up.

Chreamps
08-25-2008, 09:34 AM
but democrats have helped make the bed we are lying in.Let's face it - politicians, in general (no matter which party) are to blame - I really don't trust any politician. They all have their own personal (corporate donors) agenda in the end. Look at all of our hard earned tax payer's money being spent on this campaign and what good it could be doing elsewhere in this country. I would love if there were no parties, no mudslinging allowed, just facts presented to voters, no lobbying, no donations towards campaigns allowed but this is America and I can dream can't I?

Please read FactCheck.org. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html)

Gina.Maria
08-25-2008, 09:38 AM
If we finish the war in Iraq, we'll realize a significant savings in overall spending even if we retain a military presence there. Obama is committed to shutting down the whole Iraq operation and finishing what we started in Afghanistan where the real dangers lived. He's even worked to obtain commitments from foreign leaders to support our efforts in Afghanistan. He's no weakling, as Democrats are often portrayed. As for costing us more as Americans, when our current administration chooses to borrow money from China in order to send checks to its citizens that it urges everyone to spend in a great big shopping spree, I'd like to remind you that President Clinton left office with a budget SURPLUS! As for Biden as a running mate - I was just a little disappointed that Obama chose someone who, at first glance, fills the "need" for a mature, experienced politician. While I have nothing against Biden and think he's a decent man, I felt it was a bit of a sell-out for a candidate who has set himself apart in so many ways.

I currently live and pay taxes in Germany and I'll tell you - it's nice to actually see where your taxes go and receive the benefits promised. The politicians here are not living hedonistic lives on the back of the people and money is spent on the things most important to everyday people. Food subsidies keep the cost of essentials low (milk, butter, bread, eggs, vegetables and fruit, etc.), decent health care for everyone (better, in my experience, than in the U.S. and I do not use private insurance), excellent schools that can include career training if university is not in your future, nearly free university education earned through very hard work and talent and many other benefits that are less obvious. Here, the high taxes are offset by much lower prices, making it easier to live without worry. And for those who want to know why I'm pushing for a system where food is taxed just like other goods and services, let me just say this to you - Vine-ripened tomatoes, after tax, 1 pound < $1.35 (I did all the kilo to pound and Euro to Dollar conversions). While there is a tremendous difference in the amount of money spent on military and foreign aid in most countries that boast national health care, I still think we could find a way to make our current tax levels (still increasing the tax to the wealthy, though) cover health care reform if the plan is well-thought-out and developed as part of a complete system rather than pieced together.

While it took a while for me to warm to Obama and I've always been a supporter of McCain (I'm an Arizona Democrat - he's never had an opponent worth a damn and he's always been good for Arizona), I'm terribly paranoid about the current administration and it's behind-the-scenes machinations. I found it incredibly suspicious that all the other Republican candidates (those who lean much farther to the right than McCain and couldn't sway Democratic voters) dropped out so very early in the campaign when historically, they've battled it out as long as Barack and Hilary did. I'm very worried about McCain's running mate and any connections he (or she) might have to the current regime.

So, I support Obama/Biden and hope, with all my might, that they can make sense of the mess we've landed in and lead us in a recovery from this nightmare.

DeniseW
08-25-2008, 09:43 AM
I think it boils down to philosophical approaches to problems, and that's the difference between the two parties. For example: crime. One approach is to punish. Another approach is to prevent. One takes longer and costs more. Which approach suits you? Another example: environment. One approach is to let free-market reign. Another is to say government has a responsibility to protect the environemnt. Which apporach do you feel is right? (Obviously these are overly simplified examples... )

For me, I will always support my party, regardless of who it is, for this very reason. One party tends to approach things the way I feel is responsible and most effective. I'm voting for the ideology, not the person. I feel that one party tends to represent approaches and solutions to problems that make the most sense to me.

It's not about whether or not one candidate will raise my taxes. Taxes and expenses will always increase. The question is - what is the result of this? Are my taxes going to support corporate tax cuts? War? Or are they to build roads and schools and bridges?

Chreamps
08-25-2008, 09:45 AM
:clap:clap:clap Very well put, Gina Maria!!! :clap:clap:clap

4noisyboys
08-25-2008, 09:45 AM
I'm going to come back and read all the posts later...I'm heading out of the house right now, but let me just say I'm thrilled. I LOVE Joe Biden. I have always been a huge fan and supporter, and this is just what the ticket needs. I like Obama a lot, but I knew he needed someone with more experience, someone who could be an attack dog and do it with credibility, and someone who knows a lot about foreign affairs. He really could not have picked anyone better! My brother still isn't crazy about him because of the plagerism thing, but that was 20 years ago.

I'm so excited about the convention. I've been watching everything leading up to it, and I'll have it all taped. I just hope that Bill and Hillary can come out and show their support for Obama. So far it's just been words, but history will not be kind to them if they don't. (IMHO)

Scorpiosue1102
08-25-2008, 09:45 AM
I would say do not read any newspapers for info LOL. There's almost always some kind of slant. www.factcheck.org has good solid information. They analyze whatever Obama or McCain put out there. Here's their info on the taxes:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html


Considering we are $9.6 trillion in debt there is no way we can't increase taxes. We are going in debt $1.6 billion a day. Every person in the US has a $31,600 part of that debt. That's not including our own personal debt.

There are so many issues to go over. How about Katrina and it's aftermath? What about the fact that money is not going to medical research as much as it should? It's very sad that celebrities and newsmen/women have to do a special/raise money for cancer research.

I just want change instead of a status quo. The Democrats just took back the House in 2006 and still did nothing. How about we just get rid of the lobbyists? That would help all of Washington.

shoebootie
08-25-2008, 09:50 AM
Sue, I agree, that too is a great resource. I've read quite a few articles on that site.

Heather Manning
08-25-2008, 09:51 AM
Let's face it - politicians, in general (no matter which party) are to blame - I really don't trust any politician. They all have their own personal (corporate donors) agenda in the end. Look at all of our hard earned tax payer's money being spent on this campaign and what good it could be doing elsewhere in this country. I would love if there were no parties, no mudslinging allowed, just facts presented to voters, no lobbying, no donations towards campaigns allowed but this is America and I can dream can't I?

Please read FactCheck.org. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html)

That's what I was trying to say. Both parties are responsible for where we are at right now. Politicians in general. Can I dream with you on how it could be???

Gina.Maria
08-25-2008, 10:09 AM
Perfectly stated Denise. I agree wholeheartedly even though I have voted outside my party when choosing McCain as my senator. You've given me something to think about, though, and it makes it easier to justify voting along party lines.

Franbvm
08-25-2008, 10:28 AM
I'm still a republican......I think he is a great speaker and has a nice family but is to left wing so i'm a McCain fan!

basketballmomma
08-25-2008, 11:00 AM
I don't know what it is about obama but there is something I don't like! I know that he quit the church with the loud mouth preacher but It is funny to me that it didn't happen until the pressure was on and I will not support someone that will support a pastor that use the lords name in vain in the pullpit! I honestly don't care for mccain's stands on something either but I guess for me it is voting for the lesser of the two evils!

Hummie
08-25-2008, 11:04 AM
Don't laugh at me, but when I got the CBS e-mail alert that said, "Sources Say Biden To Be Obama's Running Mate " I thought it was spam mail about terrorists. I had to do a double take. All these "bin-this" and "bin-that" names make me cringe and my eyes skipped straight to that when I read it.

cassie-in-texas
08-25-2008, 11:17 AM
Kudos to everyone who's posted in this thread so far! Politics is a touchy subject and the comments have been well though-out, documented and very respectful of differring opinions. I usually avoid any talk of politics, but this thread has been very interesting to read (and I did click on most of the links, too) and has given me lots of points to consider. Thank you!

BNettieB
08-25-2008, 11:17 AM
Well, honestly, I feel like the Republicans (i.e., George Bush) have basically ruined this country in the past 8 years -- both financially and morally (letting big business run amok, weakening all of our environmental laws, forcing government scientists to recite Bush's political agenda or be fired, firing attorney generals who were also didn't agree with Bush politics, lying about the very foundations of a war that has killed thousands of our brave soldiers and wasted BILLIONS of dollars that could have been used here in the US rather than in Iraq). I couldn't possibly vote for a Republican this year after the outrageous travesty of the last 8 years.

DITTO! and if the Bush (puppet of Cheney and Rove) grants pardons to the Enron schemers, old oil buddies, and crooked but big Republican CEOs on the way out, that would just be the final touch!

Bottom line - McCain will simply be more of the same. That is unacceptable.

Support our troops: BRING THEM HOME!

cassie-in-texas
08-25-2008, 11:18 AM
Don't laugh at me, but when I got the CBS e-mail alert that said, "Sources Say Biden To Be Obama's Running Mate " I thought it was spam mail about terrorists. I had to do a double take. All these "bin-this" and "bin-that" names make me cringe and my eyes skipped straight to that when I read it.


Too funny:lol oops, guess I am laughing at you!

Hummie
08-25-2008, 11:29 AM
Too funny:lol oops, guess I am laughing at you!
:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:yahoo:lol:lol:lol:lol :spin:lol:lol:lol:lol

sunnie2004
08-25-2008, 11:42 AM
I am not a fan of any of the running people so I am going to back out quietly here.

thumper6423
08-25-2008, 11:49 AM
I think Obama sold out by choosing Biden. It'll be interesting to see if he alienates all those who voted for him because they wanted change because Biden's been in office longer than I've been alive I think. I'm also interested in seeing who McCain chooses for his running mate. Unfortunately, I think the VP's are going to make or break this election. I heard rumors (and it could just be becuase I'm in PA and from Erie) that Ridge is in the running as a VP for McCain. He'll definitely lose with that ticket I think unless they push education. Ridge had a good education plan when he was governor here, he just jumped ship to be Director of Homeland Security before those plans ever came to be. It's going to be interesting to hear the rhetoric and BS spewed forth from all their mouths for sure.

Microferk ~ Miki Ferkul
08-25-2008, 11:50 AM
Don't laugh at me, but when I got the CBS e-mail alert that said, "Sources Say Biden To Be Obama's Running Mate " I thought it was spam mail about terrorists. I had to do a double take. All these "bin-this" and "bin-that" names make me cringe and my eyes skipped straight to that when I read it.

:rofl2
OMGosh- that's hysterical!

scribler
08-25-2008, 11:57 AM
I think Obama sold out by choosing Biden. It'll be interesting to see if he alienates all those who voted for him because they wanted change because Biden's been in office longer than I've been alive I think. I'm also interested in seeing who McCain chooses for his running mate. Unfortunately, I think the VP's are going to make or break this election. I heard rumors (and it could just be becuase I'm in PA and from Erie) that Ridge is in the running as a VP for McCain. He'll definitely lose with that ticket I think unless they push education. Ridge had a good education plan when he was governor here, he just jumped ship to be Director of Homeland Security before those plans ever came to be. It's going to be interesting to hear the rhetoric and BS spewed forth from all their mouths for sure.

The Republican National Committee has stated that McCain will not choose a pro-choice VP. That leaves out Ridge, and I believe Lieberman as well.

shoebootie
08-25-2008, 12:07 PM
No offense, Sue, but I think that Katrina thing is blown way out of proportions.

Look at the devastating floods that just happened to the mid-west. Where is all the public outcry over that devastation and loss? There isn't any. I have friends there. Some lost more than others, but not one of them were hanging around with their hands out waiting for the government to step in and take care of them. They just went about their business taking care of things themselves -- and these are not rich people by any standards. They just are working at things to salvage what they can and replacing what has to be replaced.

I don't mean to get on a soapbox about this, it just strikes me that people have to take a certain responsibility for Acts of God themselves, KWIM? My husband and I know that we have to be prepared for things like wildfires, flash floods and drought where we live. It's the nature of the beast. Back when we lived in NY, we both had to endure the hardships from the flooding from a hurricane in the 70s. None of our neighbors or our families looked to the government to clean things up, we did it ourselves. I remember helping to empty the cellar of everything after the water was gone and I remember floating down the street in a rowboat.

I guess I just feel we expect our government to do too much for us and we don't do enough for ourselves. I want the government to take care of the business I can't -- like world politics, maintaining the infrastructure, etc. If they worry about the big stuff, I'll figure out how to take care of my own stuff.



There are so many issues to go over. How about Katrina and it's aftermath?

mama_pajama
08-25-2008, 12:13 PM
Well, since I have a deep, deep hatred for NCLB and I would like to go back to teaching someday, I'm leaning strongly toward Obama. Neither candidate (at least that I've seen) has said that he'll get rid of NCLB, but Obama is much more critical of it and has called for bigger changes. I refuse to go back into a classroom until NCLB is either gone or changed so much that it's no longer recognizable, and I don't think that will happen under McCain.

shoebootie
08-25-2008, 12:19 PM
I don't like it either. That's why we pay for a private school for our DD because she would have been held back in that they teach to the lowest common denominator, which here is the ESL students.

Don't get me wrong, I believe they are entitled to an education -- just not at the expense of my daughter's.

Well, since I have a deep, deep hatred for NCLB and I would like to go back to teaching someday, I'm leaning strongly toward Obama. Neither candidate (at least that I've seen) has said that he'll get rid of NCLB, but Obama is much more critical of it and has called for bigger changes. I refuse to go back into a classroom until NCLB is either gone or changed so much that it's no longer recognizable, and I don't think that will happen under McCain.

Kater07
08-25-2008, 01:19 PM
CHOICE includes your choice of WHERE you birth, HOW your birth, WHEN you birth and whether a judge can force you to have a c/s when you don't want one. Roe V. Wade protects women from things that an anti-choice president will ruin. These days CHOICE isn't just about legal abortions. You can be Pro-Choice and anti-abortion-as-birth-control, but you can't keep your rights as a woman and be anti-choice. This is why I'll always vote for the Pro-Choice option; It's not just MY BODY, but my daughter's body and the bodies of women everywhere, and Big Brother can keep out of our pants, wombs, Dr.'s offices, etc.

I am sick to death of watching children getting sub-par education because of NCLB. I seriously believe that tracking was a grand idea, like levels being taught to their level and challenged appropriately with the opportunity to rise up.

I want my children to live on a planet where the grass is still green and trees still grow. I'd love to see us planting hemp fields for paper goods where 40 acres of hemp can produce the same paper as 400 acres of forest. I'm terrified for those of you in Nevada. Makes me shake to think what new cancers could begin sprouting (maybe this is where the idea of what an alien looks like) if McCain gets his way there.

Gosh, wouldn't it be great to pay less then $1.50 for 1 tiny avocado, less than $1/lb of bananas and tomatoes and less than $3/gallon of gas? It would be great if it didn't cost me 2 weeks' budget for 1 week of veggies for my family when we're being encouraged to eat NINE servings per day!

Let's get it together. I'm just sick of the whole thing, really.

Obama/Biden has my vote unless McCain suddenly jumps to the extreme left.

DeniseW
08-25-2008, 02:58 PM
IMO, lowering the price of gas is not the answer. The answer is to find alternative energies so that we aren't so dependant on gas. Again, one approach is immediate relief, the other approach is sustainable. I'll glady give up in the short term for long-term benefit. It's not just about me, but about making things right for our children and our children's children. And our children's children's children.

my4boys
08-25-2008, 03:06 PM
Heather, I could NOT have said it better myself....I agree with EVERYTHING you have said here and believe the same as you. The Republicans are not to blame for EVERYTHING, not by a long shot!!!!!

Dawn, you know I love you, right. LOL I don't want you to think I'm picking on you. (I'm always worried I'll step on toes with my thoughts. LOL) Just had to give my opinion on this. :)

Republicans have 1 guy (2 if you count Cheney) in major control in this country. They control congress, they control the majority of the states ( think I read something like 30 of the 50), the majority of the counties, the major cities all have democratic mayors. One guy doesn't have so much control that he ruins everything. Democrats have to take some of the blame for the mess we are in in my opinion. I'm not saying republicans are perfect, because I think they have screwed up too, but democrats have helped make the bed we are lying in.



This is how I feel too.

Heather Manning
08-25-2008, 03:07 PM
But wouldn't it be nice if gas prices were lowered WHILE we were looking for other sources of energy? I'd love to say I'd be willing to give up the short term, but with prices of everything going up so high, we're cutting corners already. With the 40 cent drop in gas prices already it's helped us. Before the president announced drilling, I think we were up to $3.98/gal. The drilling announcement came, and our gas has been dropping since then. I paid $3.47/gal the other day. That 50 cent savings/gal is actually quite a bit when I'm filling up my van. And, just that little bit, I don't feel like I have to cut back going to my mom's house - 45 minutes away on the weekends so myself and my kids can see grandma (my mom), their favorite thing to do.

I'm with McCain on this one. Drilling, clean coal, nuclear energy, wind, solar, whatever else we can find to make it work. We can't just sit around waiting for something to be found. A lot of us are hurting now.

ETA - Christine, you were posting at the same time I was. LOL Thanks! I was worried I'd step on toes. I'm always nervous about voicing my opinion on politics when I'm not in a political forum.

4noisyboys
08-25-2008, 03:09 PM
Above quote"Gosh, wouldn't it be great to pay less then $1.50 for 1 tiny avocado, less than $1/lb of bananas and tomatoes and less than $3/gallon of gas? It would be great if it didn't cost me 2 weeks' budget for 1 week of veggies for my family when we're being encouraged to eat NINE servings per day!"

Obama has no plan to lower any cost of gas and produce. Check your facts. It sounds nice in theory but all he plams to do is increase budget, spending, pay...all this does is increase living costs. The Dems have it all wrong! I am as bummed as anyone about these things....but Obama is not the solution.


and John McCain is? :shrug

DawnMarch
08-25-2008, 03:15 PM
Dawn, you know I love you, right. LOL I don't want you to think I'm picking on you. (I'm always worried I'll step on toes with my thoughts. LOL) Just had to give my opinion on this. :)

Republicans have 1 guy (2 if you count Cheney) in major control in this country. They control congress, they control the majority of the states ( think I read something like 30 of the 50), the majority of the counties, the major cities all have democratic mayors. One guy doesn't have so much control that he ruins everything. Democrats have to take some of the blame for the mess we are in in my opinion. I'm not saying republicans are perfect, because I think they have screwed up too, but democrats have helped make the bed we are lying in.

Heather, I :wub love you too, even when you're wrong. :lol Just kidding.

Yes, it takes more than 2 guys to get us into the fix we are in, but where is the outrage over what's gone on? Why have the established Republicans -- including McCain -- continued to support Bush and his policies?
Why is McCain allowing Bush to raise money for him? And, most of Bush's worst damage -- including the dismantling of our environmental and land protection laws, and of course, the invasion of Iraq on false pretenses -- was done when Republicans (including McCain) were running Congress in Bush's first term. I think we need a totally different agenda and direction coming from our highest office, and McCain doesn't provide that.

mama_pajama
08-25-2008, 03:40 PM
I am NOT a Bush fan. In fact, I have a calendar hanging in my kitchen that counts down the days until he's out of office (148 days, BTW). I do not think that McCain will be more of the same. He probably won't get my vote, but I actually like McCain very much. I like the McCain of 2000 much better than the one I see today, but he still has more intelligence and common sense than Shrubby could imagine having. I know that he has toed the party line far more than he should have, but he also has his own ideas and I think that if he is elected, we'll see some more of the maverick that McCain used to be.

vegaschristina
08-25-2008, 03:51 PM
I've got to be honest with you ladies. I'm so thrilled that we've been able, even if it doesn't last for long, to have a rational discussion without it disintegrating into something really bad. There's only one way to solve our current political issues...and that's for everyone to become involved.

jeepmama
08-25-2008, 03:55 PM
I'm so thrilled that we've been able, even if it doesn't last for long, to have a rational discussion without it disintegrating into something really bad.

I second that, Christina!! :)

Florida Cindy
08-25-2008, 03:55 PM
I want this person to be President! (http://www.thelopezfamilyonline.com/play.php?first=FL&last=Cindy)

Kim2002
08-25-2008, 04:00 PM
I'm a registered Democrat, but I always vote on the issues and the candidate. So one year I voted Democrat, another year I voted Republican, another year I wrote in a candidate, etc. Overall, I think I'm a conservative and I really don't feel like either candidate best represents my viewpoints. McCain is too left to be a true republican and Obama is a socialist/Marxist who I will never support. I feel like I'm stuck voting for the lesser of two evils because a write in would only take votes away from one of the two appointed nominees. So, because of that, I'm going to vote for McCain and hope that it all works out.

The way I see it, the President alone doesn't make jack squat happen. It's all about who is in the Congress. So in the end, I guess it truly won't matter who is elected, but rather who is put in other seats of power. That is what concerns me more. I want women to have the say so over their bodies. I want the government to butt out of my life. I want to be able to run my business and not have to pay out 45% of my earnings in taxes each year and still earn less than the poverty rate. I want welfare and government to be overhauled/reformed. I also believe in a strong national defense and think we should not rely on other countries for our energy needs.

Anyway . . . let's hope it all works out in the end. **crossing fingers**

txmusicmom
08-25-2008, 04:21 PM
I've got to be honest with you ladies. I'm so thrilled that we've been able, even if it doesn't last for long, to have a rational discussion without it disintegrating into something really bad. There's only one way to solve our current political issues...and that's for everyone to become involved.

BRAVO...........and as we discuss and see things from a different vantage point- we come up with brand new solutions......

Hats off to all you ladies!!!

txmusicmom
08-25-2008, 04:34 PM
I want this person to be President! (http://www.thelopezfamilyonline.com/play.php?first=FL&last=Cindy)

I can't help noticing the resemblance to YOUR avatar! :yahoo

my4boys
08-25-2008, 05:00 PM
ETA - Christine, you were posting at the same time I was. LOL Thanks! I was worried I'd step on toes. I'm always nervous about voicing my opinion on politics when I'm not in a political forum.

I kniw I feel the same way...I almost did not post at all until I read yours :lol

amandabarugh
08-25-2008, 05:16 PM
Can't be Liberal enough for me, I am for Obama & Biden.

Ditto

amandabarugh
08-25-2008, 05:23 PM
CHOICE includes your choice of WHERE you birth, HOW your birth, WHEN you birth and whether a judge can force you to have a c/s when you don't want one. Roe V. Wade protects women from things that an anti-choice president will ruin. These days CHOICE isn't just about legal abortions. You can be Pro-Choice and anti-abortion-as-birth-control, but you can't keep your rights as a woman and be anti-choice. This is why I'll always vote for the Pro-Choice option; It's not just MY BODY, but my daughter's body and the bodies of women everywhere, and Big Brother can keep out of our pants, wombs, Dr.'s offices, etc.


OMG! Thank you so much for posting this! I have been thinking this same thing since I started having children. Being pro-choice is about so much more than just abortion. It's about being pro-productive rights, period. The slippery slope attached to overturning RvW scares the crap out of me. Reason enough for me to vote pro-choice and pro-WOMAN!

DeniseW
08-25-2008, 06:28 PM
OMG! Thank you so much for posting this! I have been thinking this same thing since I started having children. Being pro-choice is about so much more than just abortion. It's about being pro-productive rights, period. The slippery slope attached to overturning RvW scares the crap out of me. Reason enough for me to vote pro-choice and pro-WOMAN!

That's my fear, too. I'm not liberal solely because of abortion/reproduction issues - there's more to it for me. But the 'how' behind conservatives approach this issue is what is worrisome to me. That's another topic, though. :)

For me, the fear is that overturning RvW will lead to restricting IVF and other forms of assisted reproduction as a fertility options and that really saddens me. Assisted reproduction has helped so many families!

As far as abortions go, women are going to have them regardless of whether or not they are legal. Sometimes their situations are such that they have no alternatives. And I'd rather see women have access to safe, medically controlled abortions than to resort to dirty back alley methods.

ccouch
08-25-2008, 06:47 PM
Big Brother can keep out of our pants, wombs, Dr.'s offices, etc.

I do want to keep the gov't out of my doctor's office which is why I'm totally against a nationalized healthcare system.

Change needs to happen, but that's not the kind I'd sign up for.

ktanker
08-25-2008, 06:50 PM
I think the ticket is just GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it gives McCain a very good chance of winning!

I'm with ya! :yahoo

mama_pajama
08-25-2008, 07:13 PM
I do want to keep the gov't out of my doctor's office which is why I'm totally against a nationalized healthcare system.

Change needs to happen, but that's not the kind I'd sign up for.

The insurance companies are already in my doctor's office, and I dislike it enough that I'm willing to take my chances that anything will be better than the way it is now. And public healthcare doesn't necessarily mean nationalized health care.

3pointers
08-25-2008, 10:08 PM
I would say do not read any newspapers for info LOL. There's almost always some kind of slant. www.factcheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org) has good solid information. They analyze whatever Obama or McCain put out there. Here's their info on the taxes:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html

Actually, I wouldn't trust Factcheck.org either. You might want to read this:

http://clintondems.com/2008/08/obamas-connections-to-factcheckorg-exposed-by-texas-darlin/

Natalie
08-26-2008, 12:51 AM
Until the current president, I was a registered Republican - now, I'm a registered Democrat, but it's probably obvious that I'm definitely a right-leaning Dem.

I don't think McCain is the ideal candidate, not by a long shot, but Obama is far too liberal for me. I don't want to live in a socialist country.

I do recognize that there needs to be changes, and I think Obama is right about a good many things. I just can't get past just how left-leaning he is. So, reluctantly, I will vote for McCain, but I sure wish Clinton was the Dem candidate - she'd get my vote.

latrischler
08-26-2008, 03:17 AM
I think the ticket is just GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it gives McCain a very good chance of winning!

ROFL! :D

scribler
08-26-2008, 03:23 AM
OMG! Thank you so much for posting this! I have been thinking this same thing since I started having children. Being pro-choice is about so much more than just abortion. It's about being pro-productive rights, period. The slippery slope attached to overturning RvW scares the crap out of me. Reason enough for me to vote pro-choice and pro-WOMAN!

As a woman, I have to step in here and say I do not believe you have to be pro-choice to be pro-woman. I think you can definitely be pro-life and pro-woman.

There are choices to be made long before you get to the point of having an abortion. And with an unintended pregnancy, there is another option available outside of keeping the baby and that's adoption.

And I realize there are times when things are beyond a woman's control such a rape, incest, mother's life in danger, the baby won't live outside the womb. In those cases, then I think the option of an abortion should be available. I just don't think it should be available to you simply because you are pregnant and do not wish to be.


For me, the fear is that overturning RvW will lead to restricting IVF and other forms of assisted reproduction as a fertility options and that really saddens me. Assisted reproduction has helped so many families!

I really do not believe that limiting abortions to the options listed above will impact IVF. Do you have any specific reason why you feel it would? If so, I'd love to know what that it is, especially if you have links to that information.

I initially was going to stay out of this, but I just couldn't let the idea of being pro-life making you not pro-woman stand.

latrischler
08-26-2008, 03:26 AM
I want this person to be President! (http://www.thelopezfamilyonline.com/play.php?first=FL&last=Cindy)

Oh my gosh - that is TOOO funny! :lol

vegaschristina
08-26-2008, 04:11 AM
As a woman, I have to step in here and say I do not believe you have to be pro-choice to be pro-woman. I think you can definitely be pro-life and pro-woman.

There are choices to be made long before you get to the point of having an abortion. And with an unintended pregnancy, there is another option available outside of keeping the baby and that's adoption.

I agree with you that choice should happen prior to pregnancy, and I am an adoptive mom, so I live with the adoption option every day (x3 actually :wub) but I don't believe that you have to be pro-life to be anti-abortion.

Here's my opionin, for what it's worth, I am pro-choice. I don't believe in abortion as a method of birth control. I can't imagine any circumstance that would see me having an abortion. That said, I don't think it's Bush, McCain, or the pope's business what I do with my reproductive rights. Whether it's an abortion, IVF, or taking birth control pills, those are MY decisions and not the governments or the church's.

I could NEVER support a pro-life candidate, because he or she seem to think that it's their business what happens in my gyno's office.

I think there are tons of people who believe the same way...pro-CHOICE, not pro-abortion.

thumper6423
08-26-2008, 04:55 AM
Don't laugh at me, but when I got the CBS e-mail alert that said, "Sources Say Biden To Be Obama's Running Mate " I thought it was spam mail about terrorists. I had to do a double take. All these "bin-this" and "bin-that" names make me cringe and my eyes skipped straight to that when I read it.

LOL I was chatting with a friend last night who said that Obama/Biden is too close to Osama Bin Laden for her. Not meaning that she thinks they're terrorists or anything, just the way their names go together. It just doesn't compute right in the brain when you read it fast.

frani_54
08-26-2008, 05:00 AM
Usually I stay away from these posts, but have to say both parties scare me....

Obama because of his socialist leanings, do we as a country really want to pay for slackers....I don't....I work hard to have what I have....he's always talking about change, what kind of change...he really hasn't said. Does he have a plan, I haven't heard it. And if he presented it today, will it change tomorrow? Who is Obama really....

McCain, I'm not sure I want his liberal leanings takiing over.

Let's just say I won't vote for Obama, no way, no how.....

rainbowkitty
08-26-2008, 05:30 AM
Obama wasn't my choice for this election. I really would of liked to see Hillary, I know, I am FAR different than most of you. But Obama will get my vote. I can't fathom the idea of four more years with a super conservative president who is for fighting a war most of America disagrees with.
I am a liberal conservative. Yes I know this is a contradiction in terms but thats who I am. Generally I am very conservative, but on human rights I stand far to the left. Especially on gay rights. This issue is very important to me and because of that I vote for people who are willing to stand up and defend these people and grant them basic civil rights and liberties.
Well I am probably giving you more than you asked for so I will stop.

rainbowkitty
08-26-2008, 05:35 AM
Oh and on the abortion issue, I can not fathom how ANYONE thinks this is a CHOICE? How can murder be a choice? We KNOW life begins at conception or very shortly thereafter, way before eighty percent of women even know they are pregnant. And this is not just a moral standpoint, its a logical, medical one. At TEN weeks a baby has fully formed fingers and toes, HUMAN toes. We also know that a baby this young feels pain, again this is science people. So I am pro-life, but I am not for outlawing abortion either. I think we need much stricter laws in place, moms should have to go through counseling, have an ultrasound, and have someone tell them exactly what their baby looks like and what their stage of development is. They should have to see their baby's heart beating before they make this "choice". Thats my moral high horse for the morning.

txmusicmom
08-26-2008, 05:53 AM
The insurance companies are already in my doctor's office, and I dislike it enough that I'm willing to take my chances that anything will be better than the way it is now. And public healthcare doesn't necessarily mean nationalized health care.

I agree! - My beef is free healthcare-- Hey I sure would love to have the amount of money we pay for insurance to buy other things......our dental is $60 a month but we have 6 people in our family- That could go toward a cell phone plan instead of the prepaid I carry.......( much to my teenage daughter's dismay)- Our health insurance is way more than that.

But I can't complain - it covered my daughter's $64,000 + heart procedure. That's what insurance is for......THE big things.....

I wouldn't mind reduced premiums........one institution in town - has healthcare premiums based on the employees salary.........that's a start......

I saw on TV where a family making over $75,000 didn't have healthcare--and we were supposed to feel sorry for them? - excuse me- we make less that that..........

So yes we need healthcare reform-- but everyone needs to pay SOMETHING.........and/or be eligible to buy into group plans........

Time to wash dishes.......

kjbstevens
08-26-2008, 06:26 AM
I guess I just feel we expect our government to do too much for us and we don't do enough for ourselves. I want the government to take care of the business I can't -- like world politics, maintaining the infrastructure, etc. If they worry about the big stuff, I'll figure out how to take care of my own stuff.

This is exactly how I am too. Personal responsibility needs to be addressed more in the country instead of having an ineffient large gov't thinking they know how to do things best. I'd rather keep my money and do it myself which is why I'm totally against a gov't health insurance or 401k program. If I could keep all of the money I was putting into social security that I'll never see and invest it myself I'm pretty sure I'd end up ahead in the long run instead of seeing nothing for something that I'm not totally sure that the gov't should be paying retirement to start with. I can totally see both sides because some people do work hard and need help. The ones that don't just hurt things. The health care for Medicaid here in Maryland is drug down so much because people that don't pay taxes get most of the benefit. Of course our sales tax just went up and the lower working classes can't get the help now because they had to cut the benefits. *sigh*

I've had state gov't health insurance and let me tell you it might be free but you don't get the comforts and respect you get with private. I was forced to get not really the meds I needed but just what they'd cover and things that any other insurance would have covered. I also didn't get the tests I needed done so I had a baby born with a heart problem that could have been diagnosed before hand if they'd have paid for an ultrasound since it was a side effect of the medicine I had to take because they wouldn't pay for the Lovenox over heparin. Lesson learned though. It did save us money but I should have just used our other insurance and paid the extra.

Really I don't see much changing whoever gets elected. There are so many steps that have to be taken that one little snag can just leave things as they are.

mama_pajama
08-26-2008, 06:55 AM
Obama because of his socialist leanings, do we as a country really want to pay for slackers....I don't....I work hard to have what I have....

But I don't think of it as paying for slackers. Some people are truly in a tough spot and need help to get back on their feet.

And as far as healthcare goes, we're really helping ourselves. My husband and I are choosing which company healthcare plan we're going to sign up for right now. He's been with the company for 8 years, so we're not slackers. We can't afford the higher plan, but if we choose the lower plan we have to cross our fingers and toes that none of us has to be hospitalized because we won't be able to afford that, either. What kind of system is that? Hard working people are afraid of losing everything if they face a health crisis. It's appalling, and it could affect anyone. Even if you have 100% coverage, your insurance company can pull any number of dirty tricks to avoid paying.

On a separate note, I'm personally a VERY Christian, liberal leaning Independant voter. This is just my personal feeling, but I don't think Jesus would want us to have the attitude that we need to take care of ourselves and let the slackers worry about themselves. That's not what He taught us. Yes, I know God helps he who helps himself, but it's God's business to decide who is worthy of help, not mine. He taught me to help my fellow man, and whether it's through taxes and social programs or through my church, I'm not going to complain about my money helping people who are less fortunate.

Chreamps
08-26-2008, 08:44 AM
mama_pajama wrote:
On a separate note, I'm personally a VERY Christian, liberal leaning Independant voter. This is just my personal feeling, but I don't think Jesus would want us to have the attitude that we need to take care of ourselves and let the slackers worry about themselves. That's not what He taught us. Yes, I know God helps he who helps himself, but it's God's business to decide who is worthy of help, not mine. He taught me to help my fellow man, and whether it's through taxes and social programs or through my church, I'm not going to complain about my money helping people who are less fortunate.

I totally agree and what a wonderful way to put it.

WenRob
08-26-2008, 09:06 AM
I really do not believe that limiting abortions to the options listed above will impact IVF. Do you have any specific reason why you feel it would? If so, I'd love to know what that it is, especially if you have links to that information.
This is why IVF would get lumped into that catagory:
Oh and on the abortion issue, I can not fathom how ANYONE thinks this is a CHOICE? How can murder be a choice? We KNOW life begins at conception or very shortly thereafter, way before eighty percent of women even know they are pregnant. And this is not just a moral standpoint, its a logical, medical one. At TEN weeks a baby has fully formed fingers and toes, HUMAN toes. We also know that a baby this young feels pain, again this is science people. So I am pro-life, but I am not for outlawing abortion either. I think we need much stricter laws in place, moms should have to go through counseling, have an ultrasound, and have someone tell them exactly what their baby looks like and what their stage of development is. They should have to see their baby's heart beating before they make this "choice". Thats my moral high horse for the morning.
(My children were all conceived through IVF)
Embryos are almost always, 'left over' after IVF and/or do not make it past implantation. Some people think that life begins after conception and do not waver on that. An embryo is conception. By that kind of thinking, I'm a murderer as there were several failed attempts. Then again, any woman who has had unprotected sex can say the same as countless embryos do not make it every month, we are just blissfully unaware. A reversal of RvW would definitely put IVF and other forms of infertility treatment at risk. IVF is imperfect and they haven't quite figured out how get it right so that no embryos go unused but again, that happens every single month to millions of women who don't even know it. And then there's the 'moral issue' of those left over embryos. People who believe they have life already (and in a fierce debate w/conservative relatives, they believe a soul) the only solutions to this issue are to give them to people (essentially adoption w/zero rights to the 'birth' parents) or to never do it. It's all too black and white IMO, w/no grey. I tend to see the grey which is research that could save countless lives but W has vetoed that and essentially taken that decision out of my hands and rendered them discarded which I find more vile.
Sorry, didn't mean to rant, just a subject I've been touchy about for more then a decade. I just meant to point out that a reversal would not be good for ART.

LDesjardin
08-26-2008, 09:10 AM
This is just my personal feeling, but I don't think Jesus would want us to have the attitude that we need to take care of ourselves and let the slackers worry about themselves. That's not what He taught us. Yes, I know God helps he who helps himself, but it's God's business to decide who is worthy of help, not mine. He taught me to help my fellow man, and whether it's through taxes and social programs or through my church, I'm not going to complain about my money helping people who are less fortunate.

I agree with this too. We are very conservative Christians and we do a lot for people who need it. I just don't think the government should be the ones doing it for us. I think it's up to us as individuals to do what we can to help our fellow man. IMO, if we had some of our tax dollars in our pockets, we'd not only have more to spend, we'd have more to give too. Would every one give? No. But a lot of people would. I would give more and I know a lot of people who would too. How much of our tax-dollars go to social programs that hold people back and not that help them up. Here's the thing - I do not trust the government to make those decisions for me. They can't be trusted to balance the budget, pay down the deficit. I think we can all agree on that. How can the be trusted to help the people who need it.

mama_pajama
08-26-2008, 09:32 AM
LaWanna, I agree with you 100%. I do believe that people should be giving by choice and not force. But this is not a perfect world, and I'm truly afraid of what our country would be like if people were given the choice and too many of them decided not to be giving. I don't think it would force enough people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and take care of themselves, I think too many people would find themselves in desperate situations and they would do desperate things because they saw no other way out. I know it sounds pessimistic, but I really don't want to find out if I'm right or not.

Natalie
08-26-2008, 09:48 AM
But I think many people DO contribute to charities and other programs designed to help people in a tough spot. OTOH, if the government taxes folks who are "doing well" so much that it becomes a disincentive to "do well", then we all lose. That's why I am so fearful of the socialist-sounding changes that Sen. Obama seems to be proffering.

My husband makes a good salary - a very good salary - and we still "get by". Why? Because, among other things, we pay a minimum of $400/month for student loans for my Master's Degree, and his Master's and Doctorate degrees. So sorry, but we worked hard and made plenty of sacrifices to get here, and I don't feel especially confident that a government-managed <insert just about any social program here> is going to be better than a more accountable private organization whose donors give freely. And I do know there are folks who are in a tough spot (we've been there, too, and my mom has been there plenty of times - fortunately, my sister is able to give extensive financial help to our mom) - if the government-sponsored programs were better able to manage their ginormous programs more effectively, and weed out those who abuse the programs, there'd likely be more money for those who deserve the helping hand.

I just don't think that the government has done an especially compelling and commendable job with many of the social programs it offers, and I'm sure one of the problems is that there isn't the sort of accountability, oversight, and public scrutiny that many of the larger and respected charitable organizations must submit to.

Gina.Maria
08-26-2008, 09:53 AM
I don't like it either. That's why we pay for a private school for our DD because she would have been held back in that they teach to the lowest common denominator, which here is the ESL students.

Don't get me wrong, I believe they are entitled to an education -- just not at the expense of my daughter's.


You know, in Germany they have programs similar to ESL for immigrant children (DAZ - pronounced like "dots"). My youngest daughter took advantage of that over the past two years and no one ended up suffering for it. She and all the other children for whom Deutsch was a second language (children from Poland, Russia, Turkey and Asia) were integrated into the regular classroom activities over time. She joined her class immediately for sport and math and took longer to integrate social studies and science. Her language acquisition was very quick and she excelled in school. (She only stayed in DAZ for two years because she had no need to take English and her DAZ teacher loved having her in class.)

I consider the program here highly successful based on my experience with my daughter and it's certainly one that American schools could learn from. Also, not every school offers DAZ instruction. There is only one in each area of town, so your child can attend a school without the program if you so choose.

As for education, in general, I believe the Republican party has dropped the ball repeatedly in this area but NCLB is exceptional in it's idiocy.

frani_54
08-26-2008, 10:10 AM
But I don't think of it as paying for slackers. Some people are truly in a tough spot and need help to get back on their feet.

And as far as healthcare goes, we're really helping ourselves. My husband and I are choosing which company healthcare plan we're going to sign up for right now. He's been with the company for 8 years, so we're not slackers. We can't afford the higher plan, but if we choose the lower plan we have to cross our fingers and toes that none of us has to be hospitalized because we won't be able to afford that, either. What kind of system is that? Hard working people are afraid of losing everything if they face a health crisis. It's appalling, and it could affect anyone. Even if you have 100% coverage, your insurance company can pull any number of dirty tricks to avoid paying.

On a separate note, I'm personally a VERY Christian, liberal leaning Independant voter. This is just my personal feeling, but I don't think Jesus would want us to have the attitude that we need to take care of ourselves and let the slackers worry about themselves. That's not what He taught us. Yes, I know God helps he who helps himself, but it's God's business to decide who is worthy of help, not mine. He taught me to help my fellow man, and whether it's through taxes and social programs or through my church, I'm not going to complain about my money helping people who are less fortunate.

I agree, but expecting the government to bail people out all the time is not the answer either.



I hear you about the high cost of insurance, but again I have to say that a government run medical program is not the answer. I have a friend that lives in Canada, her son was sick. She took him to the hospital and they wanted her to see a specialist, it took her two months to get in. This is not what I want. As an older adult I would have low priority on a waiting list then someone that is younger.

When has anything that was run by the government the best option? I think we need reform from our insurance carriers not more government run programs.


Slacker was the wrong choice of word when I said slacker, for that I apologize.
I too am Christian and I believe in taking care of my fellow man. For me itís a personal choice to give to charities and help out where I can, and I do that often, but again I donít think itís governments job to do that.

I guess I get steamed up when someone even suggests more government. We as a country are depending too much on our government to take care of our needs to bail us out when we get in a spot. When is it our responsibility to accept the consequences of our own actions? Yes sometimes we do not have control of our circumstances and do fall on hard times. There are programs that can help, unemployment benefits, which we have paid into help if someone has lost their job.

bho
08-26-2008, 10:27 AM
I believe in smaller government.

I believe in personal responsibility and letting people live with their choices, AND their money.

I want the freedom to give my money to those in need according to MY beliefs, and not have the government do it for me by taxing me and spending on more social programs.

I believe in standing up to hypocrisy and not accepting it...not from a candidate who claims he is all about change and then selects a very established Washington insider as his running mate, and not from GOPs who claim to be for cutting the deficit and yet spending like drunken sailors.

I'm a libertarian and getting angrier every day.

LDesjardin
08-26-2008, 11:04 AM
LaWanna, I agree with you 100%. I do believe that people should be giving by choice and not force. But this is not a perfect world, and I'm truly afraid of what our country would be like if people were given the choice and too many of them decided not to be giving. I don't think it would force enough people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and take care of themselves, I think too many people would find themselves in desperate situations and they would do desperate things because they saw no other way out. I know it sounds pessimistic, but I really don't want to find out if I'm right or not.

Actually, I don't just think that people should give by choice. I think that they should be allowed to have that choice. I also have faith that many people will give and already do. Many people give when they can't really afford to. I guess I have a lot of faith in people, in humanity.

I will tell you that I grew up in a very very poor home. The first home I remember, I could see the ground through the floor-boards of our house. Every stitch of clothing I had was given to us or made by my mom from scraps. That was back before it was easy to get government help too. I escaped that because of two things - my mother's desire to better our lives and because many many people gave us things and helped out whenever and where ever they could.

It is my belief that the government programs prop people up to the point they feel they can't escape it. Their hope is sucked dry because if they do go out and get a job as a starting point, their benefits are cut back to the point they can't feed their families. They feel stuck in their situations because they are robbed of the chance to improve their situations themselves. They have no pride, because they don't have to work to feed and house their families and when they try to the rug is swept out from under them. It can be an endless cycle and I've seen that among my own family over and over. I do not believe that I would be in this situation that I'm in right now if my mother had become trapped in this same cycle. The same people that donated clothes and food for her, helped her get better and better jobs, helped her get some training - not through the government, but through the church and neighborhood organization.

What's the difference in people donating voluntarily and the government doing it? Accountability. It is much easier to sign up for government benefits than to wander over to the neighborhood church, look someone in the eye and ask for help. And that accountability is part of what helps people escape their situations. That sounds harsh and it is. I know because I remember being with my mom when she had to ask for help for groceries and Christmas. Heck I remember her asking for a donated sleeping bag so I could go camping with our church. But that is what gave her incentive and drive and a goal to get out of it. That is also what kept me from having kids too early, and encouraged me to go to college, find the right husband and generally stay out of trouble. I did not ever want to go back to that.

Also, from a Christian stand-point, I don't think that "donations" that are required of us via taxes are on the same level as giving out of a generous and willing spirit. It might go to the same place (though I doubt it) but it comes from a different place altogether.

I understand what you are saying and I'm sympathetic too. It's sort of a sink or swim kind of a thing. But if what you say is right, if we live in a country full of people who are too selfish and piggish to help their neighbors, friends and families, and if we live amongst people who would rather steal and kill and harm others or themselves than to work to provide for themselves and their families, we are already in hell.

Hummie
08-26-2008, 11:24 AM
:rofl2
OMGosh- that's hysterical!

Obama-Biden looks too much like Osama Bin Laden -- sure it does! Just mix up the letters and take out the "s!"


:rofl2

Sorry---I don't talk politics and who I support. I'm just having a hang up.

frani_54
08-26-2008, 11:38 AM
Thank you for saying what I lacked in expressing my frustration with bigger government.

kjbstevens
08-26-2008, 11:45 AM
I don't think that "donations" that are required of us via taxes are on the same level as giving out of a generous and willing spirit. It might go to the same place (though I doubt it) but it comes from a different place altogether.

I totally agree with this. I always give anyone that asks or does anything in our town that needs it. I give our clothes to the box here in town, food to the food bank, donate monthy to United Way, and always get stuff from church fundraisers at Walmart even though I don't go to church myself. I do that because I want to and want people to have them that need them. Plus the gov't can't waste or misuse them. The tax programs force us too. I get grumpy with that. ;)

shoebootie
08-26-2008, 11:57 AM
roflamo :lol

LOL I was chatting with a friend last night who said that Obama/Biden is too close to Osama Bin Laden for her. Not meaning that she thinks they're terrorists or anything, just the way their names go together. It just doesn't compute right in the brain when you read it fast.

nightlily
08-26-2008, 12:09 PM
No offense, Sue, but I think that Katrina thing is blown way out of proportions.

Look at the devastating floods that just happened to the mid-west. Where is all the public outcry over that devastation and loss? There isn't any. I have friends there. Some lost more than others, but not one of them were hanging around with their hands out waiting for the government to step in and take care of them. They just went about their business taking care of things themselves -- and these are not rich people by any standards. They just are working at things to salvage what they can and replacing what has to be replaced.

I don't mean to get on a soapbox about this, it just strikes me that people have to take a certain responsibility for Acts of God themselves, KWIM? My husband and I know that we have to be prepared for things like wildfires, flash floods and drought where we live. It's the nature of the beast. Back when we lived in NY, we both had to endure the hardships from the flooding from a hurricane in the 70s. None of our neighbors or our families looked to the government to clean things up, we did it ourselves. I remember helping to empty the cellar of everything after the water was gone and I remember floating down the street in a rowboat.

I guess I just feel we expect our government to do too much for us and we don't do enough for ourselves. I want the government to take care of the business I can't -- like world politics, maintaining the infrastructure, etc. If they worry about the big stuff, I'll figure out how to take care of my own stuff.

Amen to this!! We had noticed this too, being from the midwest, just north of the flooding, and having donated time, money, and supplies to Katrina relief efforts.... where was the endless news coverage for those in Iowa? Where was the public outcry, the claims of government involvement, and the endless relief efforts staged across the country? It just wasn't there. Where were the trucks of supplies being delivered from all over the country, the newstories EVERY DAY of relief efforts? Within a few days, no one knew anything more of the travesty in the midwest.

This country has some bass-ackwards ways of supporting things, liberals, dems, republicans alike.

Where have all of the statemen gone?? I am sick and tired of having nothing but freakin' politicians to vote for. I say put your money where your mouth is. Stop freakin' talking and SHOW me what you have done.

CHANGE. It is inevitable. Either way, come January, things will change. Basing an entire campaign on the premise of "CHANGE" is insulting to me as an American. I know things will change. They always do, with OR without Obama.

I am a tree-hugging, free-loving, tax paying liberal from a VERY liberal area.

I am voting for McCain. Just because I am very afraid to see just exactly what 'Change' Obama will bring. I don't believe he has the life experience or that he has shown publicly enough of himself to judge how he will be as a leader. Yeah, he gives a great speech. Hitler did too.

Charisma alone should not win elections.
Period.

shoebootie
08-26-2008, 12:12 PM
Well, I can only speak for what I see personally and here it isn't doing so well. We have friends who had sent their DD to the private school our DD goes to, this year they transferred her to public school because of time constraints.

Their DD's class was required to take a "levels" test to see where everyone in the class was. Only 4 children out of 20 scored at the appropriate level. Guess where most of the teacher's efforts will have to go? Not towards the 4 who placed "in their grade", but on the remaining 16 children who will need to get up to speed. That means those 4 children won't be advancing their skills, but hanging out waiting for the rest of the kids to catch up to them.

I'm sorry, but that's not right. Those 4 children won't have enough time devoted to their learning the skills they are supposed to so that next year they will test "in their grade". They will begin falling behind.

That NCLB is wrong. It's not bringing children up to the rest of the children, in as much as it is dragging down the other children who are where they are supposed to be.

You know, in Germany they have programs similar to ESL for immigrant children (DAZ - pronounced like "dots"). My youngest daughter took advantage of that over the past two years and no one ended up suffering for it. She and all the other children for whom Deutsch was a second language (children from Poland, Russia, Turkey and Asia) were integrated into the regular classroom activities over time. She joined her class immediately for sport and math and took longer to integrate social studies and science. Her language acquisition was very quick and she excelled in school. (She only stayed in DAZ for two years because she had no need to take English and her DAZ teacher loved having her in class.)

I consider the program here highly successful based on my experience with my daughter and it's certainly one that American schools could learn from. Also, not every school offers DAZ instruction. There is only one in each area of town, so your child can attend a school without the program if you so choose.

As for education, in general, I believe the Republican party has dropped the ball repeatedly in this area but NCLB is exceptional in it's idiocy.

shoebootie
08-26-2008, 12:23 PM
I believe in helping people who need to be helped, but TBH, for some, the safety net of the welfare system has long ceased to be that, but has become a way of life.

I remember when I was riding the bus to high school one year. My mind was full of thoughts of college, career goals, etc when I couldn't help but over hear a conversation in the seat in front of me. There were two girls talking and one of them was complaining about her home life, blah, blah, blah. My mouth just about dropped to the floor when I heard her say, "I can't wait until I'm 18 so I can move out and get my own welfare."

That's when I realized how broken the system was / is. That's why I think we look to the government for too much and not enough to ourselves.


Slacker was the wrong choice of word when I said slacker, for that I apologize.

Gina.Maria
08-26-2008, 12:35 PM
The insurance companies are already in my doctor's office, and I dislike it enough that I'm willing to take my chances that anything will be better than the way it is now. And public healthcare doesn't necessarily mean nationalized health care.

Yeah, there's really no such thing as privacy anymore and anyone who thinks there is is probably deluding themselves. I honestly don't care if it's a government agency instead of an insurance company as long as potential employers and people I do business with cannot gain access to my medical records. No one needs to know if I underwent treatment for mental health issues (I haven't, but it's an example) and draw their own conclusions.

I'm not sure of all the details because healthcare is a confusing mess no matter what country you're looking at, but I don't think Germany has nationalized health care. What they have is nationalized or subsidized or "something" insurance. Everyone is insured and children are the best insured - you pay nothing for visits, immunizations, prescriptions, tests, hospital stays, etc. If it's for the care and treatment of a child, there is absolutely no charge to the parents.

I don't claim to know all the answers but our current health care situation is in crisis and it'll take more than access to fix it. It needs a fundamental shift all the way back to med school costs, pay expectations and liability issues for doctors, exhorbitant settlements in malpractice cases that drive costs higher and insurance companies more invested in the bottom line than in patient wellness. Just opening the doors to everyone creates bigger problems unless we fix the core and that'll take a great deal longer than 8 years.

I think anyone who expects that we'll be able to maintain status quo while trying to make things better for the future is hoping for a band-aid instead of healing.

Gina.Maria
08-26-2008, 01:12 PM
I agree with you that choice should happen prior to pregnancy, and I am an adoptive mom, so I live with the adoption option every day (x3 actually :wub) but I don't believe that you have to be pro-life to be anti-abortion.

Here's my opionin, for what it's worth, I am pro-choice. I don't believe in abortion as a method of birth control. I can't imagine any circumstance that would see me having an abortion. That said, I don't think it's Bush, McCain, or the pope's business what I do with my reproductive rights. Whether it's an abortion, IVF, or taking birth control pills, those are MY decisions and not the governments or the church's.

I could NEVER support a pro-life candidate, because he or she seem to think that it's their business what happens in my gyno's office.

I think there are tons of people who believe the same way...pro-CHOICE, not pro-abortion.

I agree.

AND, I find it interesting that candidiates that call themselves "Pro-Life" are also pro-capital punishment.

Honestly, who really thinks that a person who is pro-choice is anti-life? Crusaders act as though anyone of us who believes that no one should be allowed to interfere in a woman's right to her own body is automatically a baby-killer. For myself, I couldn't really imagine choosing an abortion but I've never experienced rape, incest or anything life-threatening in a pregnancy and I would never try to tell another woman that she has no right to decide how her body will be used. I had this discussion with a Catholic friend today and we both, surprisingly, agreed that if we became pregnant because of rape we'd both have an abortion faster than you can say D&C.

But - and this is a big but - I hardly think abortion is the biggest issue we have facing us today. Our men and boys (and now women, too) are dying by the truckloads in an unjust war and it needs to stop. Greed at the highest levels is destroying our quality of life and people are having to sacrifice quality for quantity in food in order to fill their babies' bellies.

scribler
08-26-2008, 01:34 PM
I am sorry, but I really don't believe that thinking that life begins at conception also makes you automatically against IVF. I can say that because I do believe life begins at conception and I am not against IVF. And I know that I am not the only one out there who thinks that way. Maybe my position would be better described as life begins in the womb. Regardless, that previous poster's views still do not convince me that IVF would end if the availability of abortions were limited.

This is why IVF would get lumped into that catagory:

(My children were all conceived through IVF)
Embryos are almost always, 'left over' after IVF and/or do not make it past implantation. Some people think that life begins after conception and do not waver on that. An embryo is conception. By that kind of thinking, I'm a murderer as there were several failed attempts. Then again, any woman who has had unprotected sex can say the same as countless embryos do not make it every month, we are just blissfully unaware. A reversal of RvW would definitely put IVF and other forms of infertility treatment at risk. IVF is imperfect and they haven't quite figured out how get it right so that no embryos go unused but again, that happens every single month to millions of women who don't even know it. And then there's the 'moral issue' of those left over embryos. People who believe they have life already (and in a fierce debate w/conservative relatives, they believe a soul) the only solutions to this issue are to give them to people (essentially adoption w/zero rights to the 'birth' parents) or to never do it. It's all too black and white IMO, w/no grey. I tend to see the grey which is research that could save countless lives but W has vetoed that and essentially taken that decision out of my hands and rendered them discarded which I find more vile.
Sorry, didn't mean to rant, just a subject I've been touchy about for more then a decade. I just meant to point out that a reversal would not be good for ART.

WenRob
08-26-2008, 01:45 PM
I didn't mean to imply that everyone who is pro-life thinks the same way. I was just trying to point out that it could go that way for those reasons kwim?
I am sorry, but I really don't believe that thinking that life begins at conception also makes you automatically against IVF. I can say that because I do believe life begins at conception and I am not against IVF. And I know that I am not the only one out there who thinks that way. Maybe my position would be better described as life begins in the womb. Regardless, that previous poster's views still do not convince me that IVF would end if the availability of abortions were limited.

Microferk ~ Miki Ferkul
08-26-2008, 01:52 PM
Obama-Biden looks too much like Osama Bin Laden -- sure it does! Just mix up the letters and take out the "s!"


:rofl2

Sorry---I don't talk politics and who I support. I'm just having a hang up.

I am SO with you Hummie. So I am enjoying your humor and sipping on my wine. I'll leave debates for the debate forums!

Microferk ~ Miki Ferkul
08-26-2008, 01:58 PM
I don't claim to know all the answers but our current health care situation is in crisis and it'll take more than access to fix it. It needs a fundamental shift all the way back to med school costs, pay expectations and liability issues for doctors, exhorbitant settlements in malpractice cases that drive costs higher and insurance companies more invested in the bottom line than in patient wellness. Just opening the doors to everyone creates bigger problems unless we fix the core and that'll take a great deal longer than 8 years.

Brava- it is a problem that has origins on so many levels.

When our oldest son was still alive (he suffered extensive brain damage as a result of his infant vaccinations), we came into contact with many different families. More than a handful were in the midst of spending down all of their assets because they had maxed-out the insurance on their health insurance, and in oder to get medical coverage for their child (they were now uninsurable with pre-existing conditions galore) they had to sell their homes, spend their savings, and declare bankruptcy in order to qualify for government aid. So now instead of helping a taxpayer, we've taken him/her/them out of the job market, they live in poverty so their disabled child can be covered with health care. Insane.

LDesjardin
08-26-2008, 02:02 PM
Well I am pro-life and I would not call most pro-choic-ers baby-killers. I understand that many people who are pro-choice would never choose to have an abortion. But I simply do not understand the line of reasoning.

Here's how I look at abortion. To me it's a question of when does life begin. And the fact is that we don't really know. As a Christian, I have to believe it begins at conception. I understand that there is no scientific consensus on this. So we don't know when it begins, and as Ronald Reagan approached it, I'd rather err on the side of life. If there is even a slight possibility that it's a life, it would be murder to abort it. Period. To take a life is murder. And if it's murder, I cannot support that it be left up to a woman as a so-called "reproductive right."

The IVF issue - I don't know enough about it to make a judgement on that.

As for the capital punishment comparison, I think think there is an enormous difference between a innocent life that hasn't even drawn his or her first breath and a grown human being that has done horrible crimes. That said, capital punishment does make me uncomfortable and I have a lot of mixed feelings about it.

That's all I'll have to say on that topic because it is such a polarizing issue. I think it is used by both sides of the politic aisle to exploit peoples fears.

BTW, I want to add that it is refreshing to see these topics debate intelligently and respectfully. While I disagree with many of the previous posters, I would never make character judgments based on their political leanings. One my dearest friends is a self-proclaimed socialist and I am very nearly a Libertarian. Let's just say it makes for interesting discussions.

Scorpiosue1102
08-26-2008, 05:44 PM
I am voting for McCain. Just because I am very afraid to see just exactly what 'Change' Obama will bring. I don't believe he has the life experience or that he has shown publicly enough of himself to judge how he will be as a leader. Yeah, he gives a great speech. Hitler did too.

Charisma alone should not win elections.
Period.

I've done extensive research on both candidates and Obama has plenty of life experience. I'm not saying that McCain has not i.e. POW camp etc. I like the old Maverick McCain. It may be nice to have a President that's actually taught constitutional law rather than twist it like Bush. Obama has had some really good legislation in the Illinois State Senate as well as the US Senate. I just cannot vote for someone who thinks we should still be in Iraq or possibly be there for another 100 years. I just can't do it. My pocketbook and the US pocketbook cannot handle much more.

As to state and federal agencies helping with disasters, I think that if we give them our hard earned tax dollars then they should do an acceptable job. Katrina and the Iowa flood areas are just embarrassing for our government.

Can I say how great it is to live in a country where we can actually talk about this and as women, can vote for these candidates?

If you want great political debates watch Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO. He comes back on this Friday. He almost always has a spilt panel, unless someone doesn't show up. It's nice to hear both sides.

snaggletooth75
08-26-2008, 05:50 PM
Honestly Im for McCain.
I DO NOT like Obama. His name sounds to much like Osama LOL.
I dont vote democrat nor does my husband who was in the Army for 10 plus years. When Clinton was president he RUINED the army and did NOT give them pay raises and the pay was crap.
My husband supports the war and I know hes going for McCain cause he has actually been in the military. Not Obama who is afraid to get his nails dirty.
I would still vote for Bush for the 3rd time if he was running LOL

snaggletooth75
08-26-2008, 05:56 PM
ON another note LOL
I forgot to ad.
Any presidental candidate that WONT do the pledge of alligence DOES NOT need to represent America in my book. Im sorry.

scribler
08-27-2008, 02:47 AM
If you want great political debates watch Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO. He comes back on this Friday. He almost always has a spilt panel, unless someone doesn't show up. It's nice to hear both sides.

I used to love Maher's show when it was on ABC for just that reason. Loved seeing the two sides debate the issue. Alas, no HBO here.

kjbstevens
08-27-2008, 04:04 AM
I used to love Maher's show when it was on ABC for just that reason. Loved seeing the two sides debate the issue. Alas, no HBO here.

The last 30 minutes of Brit Hume's show on Fox News does this too. He has half and half and they battle out the main headlines. The Hannity and Colmes is supposed to be like that but they really need a new democrat. Colmes just seems to weak. They could find someone else to give his arguments a little more charisma or something. Great idea for a news show though.

cassie-in-texas
08-27-2008, 04:14 AM
I like the political debates on This Week with George Stephanopolis (sp?) on Sunday mornings.

Neverland Scraps
08-27-2008, 04:56 AM
Honestly Im for McCain.
I dont vote democrat nor does my husband who was in the Army for 10 plus years. When Clinton was president he RUINED the army and did NOT give them pay raises and the pay was crap.
My husband supports the war and I know hes going for McCain cause he has actually been in the military. Not Obama who is afraid to get his nails dirty.
I would still vote for Bush for the 3rd time if he was running LOL

ON another note LOL
I forgot to ad.
Any presidental candidate that WONT do the pledge of alligence DOES NOT need to represent America in my book. Im sorry.

Not even just those things that you mentioned, but to refer to the United States of America as Barack-America, Im sorry is arrogant and disrespectful to those who are serving past, present and future to our country to keep it free and safe! How dare his VP running-mate call our nation after Barack---is this something that's coming, he's going to try changing the name of the country as well as really take out "In God we trust" out of the money and pledge of allegiance; or possibly do away with the pledge! These are all warning signs. Even if they were done in jest---anything done in jest means you've thought about it. Once that thought is there, its only a matter of 4 years of pushing for that thought through congress!

Im not scared by Barack because of his name, race, religion.

I personally do not like him for his wishy-washy answers. How on earth do you not get paid to answer questions about When life starts? I dont get paid a single penny, but I KNOW where I stand on that issue! If somene were to ask me, I'd tell them whether it hurt their feelings or not! I KNOW what I believe. Im not going to hide behind money and getting paid to answer the question! Did the Dem's not practice answering that question? Its a question that has been asked for many years---duh, think about it, answer it once and for all!!

How on earth do you expect us to sit back and think he'll make a great president when he wont answer a simple question that keeps getting pushed into congress? What's going to happen when he's elected and we as a country are called to help Russia and Georgia (not saying it's going to happen, but maybe!) Is he going to say (1) I dont believe our military should help you, we just got out of Iraq (while that's falling apart from leaving them so abruptly) we need a break (2) I dont get paid enough to make that kind of decision, boost my paygrade and I'll contemplate the question with a response.

Really, seriously . . . .this man, his words, jesting Barck-ism and his wishy washy answers are not going to get him elected! All it is doing is annoying people who are watching his every move!

And since I said Iraq, I have to visit the subject. Barack, the Dem's says he's thinking of the soldiers in Iraq. Okay, what about the soldiers who died to help Iraq beat the system and become a nation able to run on its own? Is pulling out of Iraq quickly a slap in the face to those parents who lost their children? Yes there are some who want to end the war so no other children die, but pulling out now is simply quitting. My husband talks to many locals who thank him and his fellow soldiers for bringing peace to their country. I can't tell you where he's at for his safety-sake, but where he's at, a year ago I thought for sure they'd all be dead. A year ago, there were street bombs, dangers around every corner and death being told about in the news. But today, with their presence and consistancy in this area, it is so safe that you can see children playing on the streets! My DH has often given the children candy and food from his care packages just to be able to talk with them and show them what love and companion feels like! It is moments like that, they will take away by pulling out so quickly. That country will lose what they've already done...and even if it is because they (The Dem's, people who are ignorant) think the military presence is a waste of time. Its not the presence that the Iraqi's are looking for...its the way of life they are teaching them and the rebuilding of a nation. DH just had several contractors come over to his area and are building irragation systems and stable buildings that these people can do business. Do you hear about this in the news? No, because the media doesnt' want you to know! The only want you know the bad that's being done so you hate President usy and hate the war! If we leave, who's going to teach this poverish nation who only knows destruction. The initial damage has been done, lets finish what was started. With Barack being president, he will not allow that causing this nation to go back to its roots---fighting, desctruction, doom! So all that has been done in the past few years will be in vain, including those who have died doing what they thought was right.

Yes, I WILL NOT vote for Barack. I do not think he knows what he is doing when it comes to the Military. He's only doing what the Dem's are telling him to do. So if you want a puppet I guess that's fine. I personally want a man who is going to take a stand on all issues and not hide behind paygrade or ignorance.

Like others I wish we could vote for President Bush for a third term! I think he's done a fabulous job and I thank God that he's the one who was put in charge for the past eight years. Had he not, I think 9-11 would have been just the start here at home.

Im climbing off my soapbox now :blush

4noisyboys
08-27-2008, 06:24 AM
Not even just those things that you mentioned, but to refer to the United States of America as Barack-America, Im sorry is arrogant and disrespectful to those who are serving past, present and future to our country to keep it free and safe! How dare his VP running-mate call our nation after Barack---


I'm thinking that you didn't really see the whole speech, and this was just some proganda that you got in an email or something. Yes...he did say this, but I'm fairly certain it was an accident. Both of them had gaffs in their speeches, but that was one I didn't think was going to be used for the right wing propoganda.

I could be wrong...it could've been on purpose, but he had a hard time putting his name together several times. We definitely laughed it off here when he did it.

vegaschristina
08-27-2008, 07:02 AM
That country will lose what they've already done...and even if it is because they (The Dem's, people who are ignorant) think the military presence is a waste of time.Wendy,

I consider you a friend and a smart woman. Please don't reduce this thread that has been wonderful for debating issues that are facing our nation by calling those who don't agree with you ignorant. I'd love for this thread to continue to be an open exchange of idea in an honest and respectful way. When we resort to name calling to make a point, we lower the ability for us all to exchange ideas and you lose any hope of bringing someone to your ideas.

Calling people ignorant is no way to make someone change their mind about issues or who to vote for.

Kater07
08-27-2008, 07:25 AM
It occured to me last night that I'm seeing/hearing a great deal about writing in votes for an unlisted candidate.

I'd really like to have a grand argument for not doing that, but as I can't come up with anything amazing, I'd like to offer this...

Please remember that in this country, whether there are 2 candidates or 6, there are only 2 parties that really have a chance of winning. If there is a candidate that you really really don't want in office, whether that is McCain or Obama, PLEASE vote for a party that can win rather than splitting the vote.

For example: If 2/3 those opposed to McCain as president vote for Obama, but the other 1/3 votes for some random write in candidate, then that's 1/3 fewer votes that will be counted for the true opposing candidate, Obama. Even if you are certain that you wouldn't want Obama as your president you have to vote for him in order to keep McCain out of office. The same goes if your are desperately opposed to Obama as president, but you don't really like McCain either. This is not the year that the Independents will win.

Also, remember that, for those of you who are looking at abortion as a major issue, Biden is firmly against abortion. He is, however, pro-choice because he believes that a woman should have a right to choose what happens to her body. Therefore, you may see the issues of birthing/reproduction rights and abortion become two distinctly different issues with an Obama/Biden white house rather than all being protected by Roe v. Wade as they are currently. That prospect dies with the Republicans because they will be forcfully going after RvW without protecting the other issues first.

Remember, we've had a few candidates recently voice the opinion that all women should be forced to have caesarean sections "because it's just safer".

There are so many other issues to look at too, but this one seems to be a hot topic with women voters, so I thought I'd make my point about the vote splitting.


You needn't be anti-choice to be anti-abortion.

cassie-in-texas
08-27-2008, 07:46 AM
Some of the candidates have actually stated that major surgery is safer than a natural birth? How totally insane!

amandabarugh
08-27-2008, 08:16 AM
Some of the candidates have actually stated that major surgery is safer than a natural birth? How totally insane!

No doubt! That thought makes me ill.:disagree

Sara Ellis
08-27-2008, 08:40 AM
I haven't read all 13 pages here...that will take way much more time than I have this morning, but I DID read 9-13.........

I usually stay out of these things because I don't want my views to hurt my business... and I am going to stay out of this for the most part.... I feel like I can ramble on and on about some topics here....
BUT....
once I saw the Osama/Biden names next to each other with the comparison to Osama Bin Ladin, I laughed and cringed at the same time.... it is creepy for more than one reason

I did receive a forwarded e-mail this morning from a friend (it was forwarded to her too).... I contemplated adding it to my blog, but I'm just going to add it here.........it is very long, but well worth the reading........ I hope you spend a few minutes reading this....

"Dear Friends: My name is Joe Porter. I live in Champaign, Illinois. I'm 46 years old, a born-again Christian, a husband, a father, a small business owner, a veteran, and a homeowner. I don't consider myself to be either conservative or liberal, and I vote for the person, not Republican or Democrat.
>
> I don't believe there are "two Americas" - but that every person in this country can be whomever and whatever they want to be if they'll just work to get there - and nowhere else on earth can they find such opportunities. I believe our government should help those who are legitimately downtrodden, and should
always put the interests of Amer ica first. The purpose of this message is that I'm concerned about the future of this great nation. I'm worried that the silent majority of honest, hard-working, tax-paying people
in this country have been passive for too long. Most folks I know choose not to involve themselves in politics. They go about their daily lives, paying their bills, raising their kids, and doing what they can to maintain the good life. They vote and consider doing so to be a sacred trust. They shake their heads at the political pundits and so-called "news", thinking that what they hear is always spun by whomever is reporting it. They can't understand how elected officials can regularly violate the public trust with pork barrel spending. They don't want government handouts. They want the government to protect them, not raise their taxes for more government programs.
> We are in the unique position in this country of electing our leaders. It's a privilege to do so.. I've never found a candidate in any election with whom I agreed on everything. I'll wager that most of us don't even agree with our families or spouses 100% of the time. So when I step into that voting booth, I always try to look at the big picture and cast my vote for the man or woman who is best qualified for the job. I've hired a lot of people in my lifetime, and essentially that's what an election is - a hiring process. Who has the
credentials? Whom do I want working for me? Whom can I trust to do the job right?
> I'm concerned that a growing number of voters in this country simply don't get it! They are caught up in a fervor they can't explain, and calling it "change". Change what?, I ask. Well, we're going to change America, they say. In what way?, I query. We want someone new and fresh in the White House,
they exclaim. So, someone who's not a politician?, I guess. Uh, well, no, we just want a lot of stuff changed, so we're voting for Obama, they state.
>
> So the current system, the system of freedom and democracy that has enabled a man to grow up in this great country, get a fine education, raise incredible amounts of money and dominate the news and win his party's nomination for the White House - that system's all wrong? No, no, that part of the system's okay - we just need a lot of change.
>
> And so it goes. "Change we can believe in." Quite frankly, I don't believe that vague proclamations of change hold any promise for me. In recent months, I've been asking virtually everyone I encounter how they're voting. I live in Illinois, so most folks tell me they're voting for Barack Obama. But no one can
really tell me why - only that he's going to change a lot of stuff. Change, change, change. I have yet to find one single person who can tell me distinctly and co nvincingly why this man is qualified to be President and Commander-in-Chief of the most powerful nation on earth - other than the fact that he claims he's going to implement a lot of change.
> We've all seen the emails about Obama's genealogy, his upbringing, his Muslim background, and his church affiliations. Let's ignore this for a moment. Put it all aside. Then ask yourself, what qualifies this man to be my president? That he's a brilliant orator and talks about change? CHANGE WHAT?
> Friends, I'll be forthright with you - I believe the American voters who are supporting Barack Obama don't have a clue what they're doing, as evidenced by the fact that not one of them - NOT ONE of them I've spoken to can spell out his qualifications. Not even the most liberal media can explain why he should
be elected. Political experience? Negligible. Foreign relations? Non-existent. Achievements? Name one. Someone who wants to unite the countr y? If you haven't read his wife's thesis from Princeton, look it up on the web. This is who's lining up to be our next First Lady? The only thing I can glean from Obama's
constant harping about CHANGE is that we're in for a lot of NEW TAXES.
>
> For me, the choice is clear. I've looked carefully at the two leading applicants for the job, and I've made my choice.
> Here's a question - where were you five and a half years ago? Around Christmas, 2002. You've had five or six birthdays in that time. My son has grown from a sixth grade child to a high school graduate. Five and a half years is a good chunk of time. About 2,000 days. 2,000 nights of sleep. 6, 000 meals, give
or take. John McCain spent that amount of time, from 1967 to 1973, in a North Vietnamese prisoner-of-war camp. When offered early release, he refused it. He considered this offer to be a public relations stunt by his captors, and insisted that those held longer than he should be released first. Did you get that part? He was offered his freedom, and he turned it down. A regimen of beatings and torture began. Do you possess such strength of character? Locked in a filthy cell in a foreign country,
would you turn down your own freedom in favor of your fellow man? I submit that's a quality of character that is rarely found, and for me, this singular act defines John McCain. Unlike several presidential candidates in recent years whose military service is questionable or non-existent, you will not find anyone to denigrate the integrity and moral courage of this man. A graduate of Annapolis, during his Naval service he received the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. His own son is now serving in the Marine Corps in Iraq.
> Barack Obama is fond of saying "We honor John McCain's service...BUT...", which to me is conde scending and offensive - because what I hear is, "Let's forget this man's sacrifice for his country and his proven leadership abilities, and talk some more about change."
> I don't agree with John McCain on everything - but I am utterly convinced that he is qualified to be our next President, and I trust him to do what's right. I know in my heart that he has the best interests of our country in mind. He doesn't simply want to be President - he wants to lead America, and there's a huge difference. Factually, there is simply no comparison between the two candidates. A man of questionable background and motives who prattles on about change can't hold a candle to a man who has devoted his life in public service to this nation, retiring from the Navy in 1981 and elected to the Senate in 1982.
> Perhaps Obama's supporters are taking a stance between old and new. Maybe they don't care about McCain's se rvice or his strength of character, or his unblemished qualifications to be President. Maybe "likeability" is a higher priority for them than "trust". Being a prisoner of war is not what qualifies
John McCain to be President of the United States of America - but his demonstrated leadership certainly DOES.
>
> Dear friends, it is time for us to stand. It is time for thinking Americans to say, "Enough." It is time for people of all parties to stop following the party line. It is time for anyone who wants to keep America first, who wants the right man leading their nation, to start a dialogue with all their friends and neighbors and ask who they're voting for, and why.
> There's a lot of evil in this world. That should be readily apparent to all of us by now. And when faced with that evil as we are now, I want a man who knows the cost of war on his troops and on his citizens. I want a man who puts my family's interests before any foreign count ry. I want a President who's QUALIFIED to lead. I want my country back !! Not just a word ***CHANGE ! "

Chreamps
08-27-2008, 09:16 AM
I'm not going to post all this reply to Joe Porter's email from Jeff's blog, but for those who would like to read it you can go here (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/jeffcarones/gG5HFh).

This I will share:

Change what? I ask. Well Joe, a lot of your complaints and issues you have raised for starters. Here’s a few more:
∑ The Presidential signing statements
∑ Ending the occupation of Iraq
∑ The exclusion of all voices, everyone will now have a voice
∑ Our foreign policy will be drastically changed to inclusion, rather than hostility
∑ A policy of strengthening the dollar, rather than the purposeful weakening by the Bush Admin.
∑ Energy independence from people who have a hatred for us.
That’s enough for now Joe, I am a busy man.


ETA: Also this one:

Do you possess such strength of character? Locked in a filthy cell in a foreign country, would you turn down your own freedom in favor of your fellow man? I submit that's a quality of character that is rarely found, and for me, this singular act defines John McCain. Yes, it defines him as a man. Why didn’t you guys pick him instead of Bush the younger? It did not count in 2000 or 2004? McCain is a great American hero. It doesn’t guarantee him anyone’s vote, just their appreciation and respect.

Hollie
08-27-2008, 09:17 AM
I'd just like to point out in all fairness and kindness, that calling people "anti-choice" is really quite derogatory and mean spirited. It is a tactic used by pro-choice groups to make pro-life groups or people look badly. Just as people say that pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, neither does pro-life mean anti-choice. It would be the same as if pro-choicers were labled anti-life, or even pro-murder, which we know is not the case. Pro-lifers simply believe that abortion is the willful taking of an innocent life, and in the US, that is not a choice, but a very serious crime and act against humanity. So it is highly unfair an even wrong to say that someone who takes a pro-life stance on abortion is anti-choice. This is just one reason the issue sparks so much passion, frustration, division, etc.

I appreciate this discussion and value the opinions I have read here, and am so delighted to see an overwhelmingly considerate exchange here. This is one thing that I just thought I might point out.

Hollie
08-27-2008, 09:21 AM
Some of the candidates have actually stated that major surgery is safer than a natural birth? How totally insane!

I've had 3 c-sections and I can tell you--it's definitely *not* safer than a regular birth!!!

Heather Manning
08-27-2008, 09:21 AM
It occured to me last night that I'm seeing/hearing a great deal about writing in votes for an unlisted candidate.

I'd really like to have a grand argument for not doing that, but as I can't come up with anything amazing, I'd like to offer this...

Please remember that in this country, whether there are 2 candidates or 6, there are only 2 parties that really have a chance of winning. If there is a candidate that you really really don't want in office, whether that is McCain or Obama, PLEASE vote for a party that can win rather than splitting the vote.

For example: If 2/3 those opposed to McCain as president vote for Obama, but the other 1/3 votes for some random write in candidate, then that's 1/3 fewer votes that will be counted for the true opposing candidate, Obama. Even if you are certain that you wouldn't want Obama as your president you have to vote for him in order to keep McCain out of office. The same goes if your are desperately opposed to Obama as president, but you don't really like McCain either. This is not the year that the Independents will win.

Also, remember that, for those of you who are looking at abortion as a major issue, Biden is firmly against abortion. He is, however, pro-choice because he believes that a woman should have a right to choose what happens to her body. Therefore, you may see the issues of birthing/reproduction rights and abortion become two distinctly different issues with an Obama/Biden white house rather than all being protected by Roe v. Wade as they are currently. That prospect dies with the Republicans because they will be forcfully going after RvW without protecting the other issues first.

Remember, we've had a few candidates recently voice the opinion that all women should be forced to have caesarean sections "because it's just safer".

There are so many other issues to look at too, but this one seems to be a hot topic with women voters, so I thought I'd make my point about the vote splitting.


You needn't be anti-choice to be anti-abortion.

For me, until they seperate these issues, I will never vote for a pro-choice candidate because of my feelings about abortion. I just can't overlook that in the whole pro-choice debate. It's way too important to me.

Neverland Scraps
08-27-2008, 09:53 AM
I'm thinking that you didn't really see the whole speech, and this was just some proganda that you got in an email or something. Yes...he did say this, but I'm fairly certain it was an accident. Both of them had gaffs in their speeches, but that was one I didn't think was going to be used for the right wing propoganda.

I could be wrong...it could've been on purpose, but he had a hard time putting his name together several times. We definitely laughed it off here when he did it.

I did not get this in an email. I watched it as it happened. I have been watching everything as it has been coming through. How can I not have watched it on tv, when that is all was on (atleast here on the major networks) I watched at Barack announced who the new President...er, Vice President, none of what I got has come through emails.

All my emails/forwards go right in the trash. I assure you that I have not gotten any emails about it....if you read Fox News scripts when it happened, it was written Biden's speech notes. Since Monday evening, Fox News took out the Barack America and replaced it with Barack Amer. Why I have no idea, but maybe they are trying to take back that he actually called it that.

I do know people aren't perfect, but I dont trust a man, let alone two who cant take a stand on moral issues, whether I agree with them or not as well as make comments like this because even if it was an accident that Biden said it---it was said one possibly two, three etc times before the speech, otherwise the thought wouldn't have entered into his head when he made the speech

Neverland Scraps
08-27-2008, 10:11 AM
Wendy,

I consider you a friend and a smart woman. Please don't reduce this thread that has been wonderful for debating issues that are facing our nation by calling those who don't agree with you ignorant. I'd love for this thread to continue to be an open exchange of idea in an honest and respectful way. When we resort to name calling to make a point, we lower the ability for us all to exchange ideas and you lose any hope of bringing someone to your ideas.

Calling people ignorant is no way to make someone change their mind about issues or who to vote for.

Im not saying ignorant in a bad way that they are stupid, dumb or whatever this word has become in our society. I wrote this early this morning and was at loss for words describing what I mean(t).

What Im saying when I said ignorant, I am meaning simply someone who only knows what they see or hear through the media, friends, family, internet groups, etc. I do not mean it as someone who is stupid or whatever this term has become. I have spoke to several people who have said "CNN says....." That's what I mean when I say ignorant, they only know what they see on TV or other venues.

When I was visiting Michigan, there was a man who had cornered a young woman basically screaming at her because her boyfriend was just deployed overseas. He was telling her all these nasty things that he and his buddies had overheard. He was telling this girl she needed to dump her boyfriend and that he was terrible for going overseas. When I intervened (I felt sorry for the girl!) I told him what my husband reported back home, what other friends who are currently in Iraq reported in their monthly emails. I told him about the contactors going over there to build irragation systems as well as the interactions with the children. During all this he kept saying "oh well, that I didn't know . . ." "wow, I didn't realize they were doing that" "I had no idea" After the coversation was over, he was shocked because what he thought was happening wasn't really what was going on. He only knew what his buddies and him talked about during their weekly poker games. Before the man left, he apologized to the girl. After he left, the girl and I were able to talk and be encouraged.

That's what I mean when I say that term. Nothing bad, I promise!

I do not know what the polictally correct word for what I am talking is, but I do not mean it in a bad way at all.

nikkiARNGwife
08-27-2008, 10:30 AM
I haven't read this entire thread..just kind of skimmed through b/c honestly when I come here I want see happy threads about scrapping or happy non scrapping stuff...I really don't like to see political threads here but since this one won't die I had to see what everyone was saying. Yes I know it's civil and all that but I get ENOUGH of politics from TV...why oh why does it have to enter my happy zone? lol

Anyhoo...I'll just add this to what I've read.

Yes everyone hates the war in Iraq. I'm a military wife and believe me I hate it probably more than most, BUT...to just pull our troops out of there now would be a total insult to the families and soldiers who have sacrificed so much to get Iraq to where it is today..yes it's been a long hard bloody road but I don't think anyone TODAY can say that it is not turning into a success and the Iraqi people are continuing to see the positive results of our actions. We can't just up and leave them...what would all of this have been for?

The bottom line for me is trust...who do I trust to run the country and protect my family. Who do I want to answer that call if God forbid we ever have another 9/11 situation. I can say for DARN sure it would not be Obama. Frankly..the idea of that happening and him being our president scares the you know what out of me.

sarahb
08-27-2008, 11:27 AM
I can't bear to read through all these threads without getting really worked up so I'm stopping. No one needs to hear another opinion, everyone needs to decide for themselves. This is a very important issue and don't let yourself make a decision based on a political ad, any forum post, a forwarded email or what someone says. If you don't have the time to do all the investigating yourself, try this quiz out: http://www.selectsmart.com/president/2008.html It presents some of the major issues, you select where you stand and how important the issue is to you, and you end up with a percentage match to the candidates.

Another point: no candidate is going to be perfect or exactly what you want, but really, we only have 2 possibilities for who will win the election. No matter what your feelings are on either or both of them, be sure vote and just pick the one that best matches your stand.

shoebootie
08-27-2008, 11:43 AM
I would have to agree with this. My brother has been in the service for both wars in the Middle East.

I'm not saying I don't worry about him and haven't been scared for his safety, but I know they are making a difference to people's lives there. I hate it when people talk about the war and don't see how belittling some of their comments can be.

Yes everyone hates the war in Iraq. I'm a military wife and believe me I hate it probably more than most, BUT...to just pull our troops out of there now would be a total insult to the families and soldiers who have sacrificed so much to get Iraq to where it is today..yes it's been a long hard bloody road but I don't think anyone TODAY can say that it is not turning into a success and the Iraqi people are continuing to see the positive results of our actions. We can't just up and leave them...what would all of this have been for?

scribler
08-27-2008, 01:34 PM
For me, until they seperate these issues, I will never vote for a pro-choice candidate because of my feelings about abortion. I just can't overlook that in the whole pro-choice debate. It's way too important to me.

Heather, I totally agree. For me, I cannot be anti-abortion and be pro-choice. It is not just the woman's life or the woman's body involved. There is also an unborn child involved. As long as being pro-choice means allowing a woman to choose to end the life of that unborn child simply because that is their choice, then I will never be pro-choice.

flower2416
08-27-2008, 02:34 PM
Wow- whoever put this thread up was brave. I've just skimmed through, but I have enjoyed seeing everyone’s views and sides. I agree with so much and have sympathy for so many. I well just throw in one personal thing, just to give you a little more to think about.

Heath care- my daughter was born with a heart defect and was life lighted at two days old, and had open-heart surgery at six days old. Paying for her bills is hard, but I'm glad I'm here where she can get the treatment she needs. I think the medical industry needs some major help, but I'm not sure what. I have a friend in Canada who has socialized medicine like many European countries. Medical is free (if you don't include the massive taxes they pay for it) but she still had to spend all her time and money to bring her child into the United States to see a specialist who could help them. My child could have died if we had socialized medicine. I would rather be broke and have my child, then no child at all. So I agree that something needs to be done, but am torn as to what should be done. Socialistic medicine just doesn’t seem the answer to me.

4noisyboys
08-27-2008, 03:40 PM
Some of the candidates have actually stated that major surgery is safer than a natural birth? How totally insane!


I haven't heard this said, so I don't know by whom, and I'm not sure in what context it was said, but I have to say, if I hadn't have been able to have a c-section (major surgery), I would have died in natural childbirth. So...for me this is true.

4noisyboys
08-27-2008, 03:57 PM
I did not get this in an email. I watched it as it happened. I have been watching everything as it has been coming through. How can I not have watched it on tv, when that is all was on (atleast here on the major networks) I watched at Barack announced who the new President...er, Vice President, none of what I got has come through emails.

All my emails/forwards go right in the trash. I assure you that I have not gotten any emails about it....if you read Fox News scripts when it happened, it was written Biden's speech notes. Since Monday evening, Fox News took out the Barack America and replaced it with Barack Amer. Why I have no idea, but maybe they are trying to take back that he actually called it that.

I do know people aren't perfect, but I dont trust a man, let alone two who cant take a stand on moral issues, whether I agree with them or not as well as make comments like this because even if it was an accident that Biden said it---it was said one possibly two, three etc times before the speech, otherwise the thought wouldn't have entered into his head when he made the speech

We will have to agree to disagree.

I often say things incorrectly and mix my words. These men are human...and the speech was live.

I'm sorry you feel so much anger.

I have to bow out of this thread now, because I can't handle the name calling. I just won't go there.

Chreamps
08-27-2008, 04:57 PM
Sarah, thanks for the link. That was interesting to see all the results. Obama still came out as my #1 choice.

Greedz
08-27-2008, 05:07 PM
Well, I can't support a party that doesn't support my family and hate the idea of lesser of two evils, but I have no choice this election to get the rublicans out.

Heather Manning
08-27-2008, 05:35 PM
Sarah, on that link, John McCain was my #3 (who I'm voting for). Obama was # 26. I guess I'm on track with the right candidate for me, considering #1 was a theoretical candidate. LOL

sarahb
08-27-2008, 06:14 PM
Chris and Heather, glad the quiz worked well for you both! And that you both seem to have differing views and got the results you expected speaks well for it being nonpartisan. :)

I thought it was really interesting to see the percentage matches--my top non-theoretical match was 84% and thankfully is still in the running. But if he doesn't win, at least a 44% match isn't as bad as it could be.

The main thing is, whoever you support, just make sure they stand for what you think they do, and that you cast your vote.

LindsayLou
08-27-2008, 06:49 PM
Currently, there is no candidate that I will be voting for. Obama is just a flat out no....for several reasons. McCain is a 99% no, though I am curious to see who he chooses as his running mate.......for their views, etc. I too believe there is a chance that because of McCain's age there is a good chance that the VP could one day be the Pres.

And I totally agree with this:
For me, until they seperate these issues, I will never vote for a pro-choice candidate because of my feelings about abortion. I just can't overlook that in the whole pro-choice debate. It's way too important to me.

Heather, I totally agree. For me, I cannot be anti-abortion and be pro-choice. It is not just the woman's life or the woman's body involved. There is also an unborn child involved. As long as being pro-choice means allowing a woman to choose to end the life of that unborn child simply because that is their choice, then I will never be pro-choice.


I totally prefer to NOT vote for a pro-choice candidate.....and that pretty much reduces my options by 100% this year....

natesabel
08-27-2008, 07:13 PM
Heather, I totally agree. For me, I cannot be anti-abortion and be pro-choice. It is not just the woman's life or the woman's body involved. There is also an unborn child involved. As long as being pro-choice means allowing a woman to choose to end the life of that unborn child simply because that is their choice, then I will never be pro-choice.

Amen.
When the baby gets to make their own choice, then we can talk "choices".

Obama opposed the Born Alive Infant Protection Act (http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000007034.cfm) which provided for medical care for infants who are accidentally born alive during an attempted late-term abortion.

That is not "pro-choice", that is PRO-DEATH.

Biden is an openly dissenting Catholic who likes to parade around his faith except when it comes to actually upholding the teachings of his Church.

I am a deeply traditional Catholic so I'll have to pass on both of them, thanks...

McCain's no peach, but I'm afraid he might have to do...

I have enjoyed reading the responses and thank you to everyone for being so civil! I don't usually talk politics but I feel a lot is at stake in this election.

Chreamps
08-27-2008, 08:30 PM
Again, please read factcheck.org. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html)

SteinwaysMom/DebraTope
08-27-2008, 09:48 PM
What's kind of funny is apparently when Kerry was running for president, Joe Biden suggested that he pick John McCain as his running mate as a strategy to unify the 2 parties :eek

Ultimately I don't think either of them has anything fresh or original to offer, no matter how charismatic they sound. Neither party impresses me although I tend to lean toward republican/libertarian just because it's a closer match to my values system. I think under the surface it's just politics as usual for a tired and worn out system.

And yes I am sick of them acting like they've taken out a credit card in the taxpayer's name and are making minimum payments on a rapidly escalating debt.

Diginellie
08-28-2008, 01:41 AM
A lot of of stuff here about abortion. My first experience of this was when I was 12 years old. The little kid from across the road came over and said `mummy is really sick'. Anyway my Mother went over and it turned out the lady had used a knitting needle to abort herself in her bathroom. It worked... she was married and had 3 kids already. Thanks to my mother's quick action she lived but my mother walked into a bloodbath. It was a real wake up call to me at that age as I heard the whole story and I am not going to say here how it affected me. Abortion is terrible no matter how it happens.

erica922
08-28-2008, 02:52 AM
If I could vote, will be Obama/Biden, FOR SURE!

hellosunshine
08-28-2008, 09:29 AM
How can one be for the rights of the unborn, but not participate in a process that could improve the quality of those who are already born? As we all know, there are many issues to be dealt with by our next President that will affect children. How about the environment/natural resources we are leaving for the next generation of children? What about the astronomical debt that is going to burden generation after generation? How about the thousands of Iraqi children suffering because of the war--and children around the globe losing their families to this war? What about the children of Darfur? How about the children in our inner cities and elsewhere who have no hope of escaping drug-infested, high crime, impoverished areas? What about college education costs? What about the state of our education system? AND the fact that our children don't have a right to decent healthcare? The only ones who make a difference in this world are those that participate and get involved. You can't be for one type of child and do nothing for all the others.

I will vote for Obama on the hope that he, more than John McCain, will make a difference for the good of the world. As for socialism we have it already--FEMA, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, public schools, the military, public highways, public parks, city halls, State Universities, State Museums, libraries, police services, fire protection,etc. --in my area these are paid for by taxes.

scribler
08-28-2008, 11:22 AM
Your post seems to imply that I don't vote. I resent that very much. I first voted when I was 18 years old. By the time the elections roll around in November, I will be 38. That means I have been voting for 20 years. And I wanted to be a voter since I was 10 (weird I know). Needless to say I feel voting is extremely important. I can't understand why someone would not want to vote.

I even more deeply resend the implication that by not voting for Obama you are against children. Let me begin by stating that I am firmly in the undecided camp. I am not excited about either candidate. However, if I were to choose McCain this would not mean I did not like children. It would mean that I thought McCain was the best option both for now and for the future. It would mean that I felt McCain was the best option for leading our country at this time. It would not mean that I was against children at all.

I must say that I have read every single post on this thread, because I am a political junkie. I enjoy reading everyone's opinion. This the first post that has truly upset me.

How can one be for the rights of the unborn, but not participate in a process that could improve the quality of those who are already born? As we all know, there are many issues to be dealt with by our next President that will affect children. How about the environment/natural resources we are leaving for the next generation of children? What about the astronomical debt that is going to burden generation after generation? How about the thousands of Iraqi children suffering because of the war--and children around the globe losing their families to this war? What about the children of Darfur? How about the children in our inner cities and elsewhere who have no hope of escaping drug-infested, high crime, impoverished areas? What about college education costs? What about the state of our education system? AND the fact that our children don't have a right to decent healthcare? The only ones who make a difference in this world are those that participate and get involved. You can't be for one type of child and do nothing for all the others.

I will vote for Obama on the hope that he, more than John McCain, will make a difference for the good of the world. As for socialism we have it already--FEMA, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, public schools, the military, public highways, public parks, city halls, State Universities, State Museums, libraries, police services, fire protection,etc. --in my area these are paid for by taxes.

frani_54
08-28-2008, 02:37 PM
If I could vote, will be Obama/Biden, FOR SURE!


Why? He says he's for change, but what exactly will he do?

vegaschristina
08-28-2008, 03:27 PM
Why? He says he's for change, but what exactly will he do?

*Bring home our troops from Iraq...like the Iraqis and most Americans want.

*Stop giving tax cuts to companies who ship jobs overseas.

*Stop spending our grandkids' grandkids' grandkids money like it's water.

*Preserve the rights of a woman to make choices about her own body and leave those choices between her, her doctor, and her God.

*Start making efforts to repair the economic damage done by spending billions of dollars in a war that was brought to us by way of lies and deceit.

*Begin to realistically fund research for alternative fuels.

*Find a way that everyone can access medical care.

*Repeal NCLB so that we're not teaching to the slowest child in the class but educating our children to be competitive in the increasingly global market where we are seriously behind in math and science.

I see lots of people saying Obama's for change, but what change? These issues are things he talks about in almost every speech, so listen to him with an open mind and realize that McCain is offering us nothing but more of the same. More tax cuts for the rich, while most struggle to feed their kids. More of oil executives getting record profits while we struggle to fill our gas tanks. Nuclear waste put into an unsafe repository 90 miles from my children's home but not safe enough to be trucked thru Arizona.

President Reagan was an amazing president and he asked us a question..."Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?"

So I'm asking McCain supporters...are you better off now than you were 8 years ago when Bush took office? Cause with McCain supporting Bush 95% of the time, that's what we'll be getting...4 more years of Bush's policies. Four more years of the rich getting richer. Four more years of an unstable economy. Four more years of under-educating our children. Four more years of lies.

~ashleigh
08-28-2008, 03:49 PM
I have followed this thread with interest, and have decided to keep some opinions to myself. However, I would like to link up Obama's Blueprint for Change (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/), a 30+ page outline of Obama's plan for America. If you truly want to learn what all this "change" talk is about, please take a look at it. :) And, if you really want to know more about where he is coming from, you could also read one of his books.

I understand that his fresh, progressive ideas are not for everyone, but I for one, am so incredibly excited about this election! I could go on for hours about why I love my country, support my troops, and feel that this man is the a greatest leader our country has had in a long time. I am passionate about universal healthcare, women's issues, education and ending the war in Iraq responsibly.

I have faith that voters will look past the lies and half truths being spread about Obama and get the truth.

Scorpiosue1102
08-28-2008, 03:55 PM
Well said Ashleigh. I don't completely agree with everything that Obama believes, in fact I actually agree with McCain sometimes. I just don't understand some generalizations about Obama or the fact that he was compared to Hitler here. If he speaks well it's bad. If he speaks like an idiot it's bad. I guess I just don't understand.

AmyM Designs
08-28-2008, 04:31 PM
It's very tempting to chime in here with a whole lot of info you won't be hearing from the news media (people seem to have short term memory loss in this election year) but I have a minority opinion and can't express it without being completely truthful, which would probably cause a lot of supposedly open minded folks to have a coronary. I will say that people need to check a person's voting record and not just listen to what comes out of their mouth. The records are truth, the words are sometimes lies. I get physically ill over this issue. People need to check records and facts and stop buying into all this emotion and wonderful speeches just because it sounds good. How anyone can cast a vote for a man who clearly supports infanticide is beyond me. If you cannot protect the most innocent how can you safely bring our troops home or do anything else of substance. Don't say it's not true because there is more than enough proof and voting records out there which clearly show it is indeed what he voted for. That said, the physically ill part is hitting me and I must leave this conversation for good.

Heather Manning
08-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Cause with McCain supporting Bush 95% of the time

This isn't exactly true - true since he launched his GOP campaign but not true for all of his presidency-

Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell: ďAnd guess who voted with President Bush 90 percent of the time? Sen. John McCain.Ē

The facts: McCain voted with Bush 90 percent of the time from January 20, 2001, to when Congress left Washington on its annual August recess, according to a study by Congressional Quarterly. But McCain wasn't always a staunch Bush backer. In 2005, his support for Bush's position on legislation reached a low of 77 percent; last year, when he launched his latest bid for the GOP presidential nomination, McCain voted with Bush 95 percent of the time.

vegaschristina
08-28-2008, 06:38 PM
Heather,

Thanks for putting out the more accurate numbers. I appreciate it!

LindsayLou
08-28-2008, 06:40 PM
Amen.
When the baby gets to make their own choice, then we can talk "choices".

This is precisely why I am pro-life, but also pro-capital punishment.

ange2k25
08-28-2008, 08:03 PM
[quote=sarahb;1438749]I can't bear to read through all these threads without getting really worked up so I'm stopping. No one needs to hear another opinion, everyone needs to decide for themselves. This is a very important issue and don't let yourself make a decision based on a political ad, any forum post, a forwarded email or what someone says. If you don't have the time to do all the investigating yourself, try this quiz out: http://www.selectsmart.com/president/2008.html It presents some of the major issues, you select where you stand and how important the issue is to you, and you end up with a percentage match to the candidates.

That quiz was interesting! I was a Hillary supporter and not really liking Obama all that much but he's a 96% match to my views and she's only a 77% match. Hmmm...maybe I'll give him a second look lol.

Dee Bee Designs
08-28-2008, 09:07 PM
(people seem to have short term memory loss in this election year)

Without intending to step on anyones toes or give offense I too struggle with what sometimes seems like 'group think' and the inability to take the long view of history into account when considering our nation's politics. I often wonder what people will say if in a few years Iraq is a thriving, pro-American democracy in the heart of the middle east. Will it still be a war that was not worth waging? Will the American people feel proud of the part our service men and women played in securing the Iraqi people's freedom from a homicidal dictator? (If you want to gain insight on exactly what is going on with the Iraqi people and their thoughts about the American troops serving over there I would encourge you to read some of the "mill-blogs" or Michael Yon's book "Moment of Truth in Iraq"; you will be uplifted by the heroism and American exceptionalism that is documented there.) Does anybody remember how they felt on 9/11? Am I the only one that is not amazed that we have not been attacked again?

Along those lines I share this quote from renowned historian and author Victor David Hanson who posted these comments on NRO tonight after Barrack Obama's speech. (Which I watched with a mixture of pride because of its historic nature, amazement at its artful delivery and utter despair at its specific content)

"This Democratic propensity to plead poverty and oppression to highlight one's own success ó along with the therapeutic anecdote ó finally becomes numbing. Obama, who gained his education and found opportunity in the awful Reagan and Bush I years, lives in a mansion, has prep school and Ivy League degrees, made several millions of dollars last year, and was the offspring of two PhD candidates ó and is thus a firsthand witness to America's greed and unfairness?

If Obama were to win, no one would infer from the desolation he described in America, that he may well inherit an economy, in a downturn, that just grew at 3.3 in the last quarter, an unemployment rate of 5.7%, and record levels of exportation, one that did not go into recession with $140 a barrel oil, with more students in college than at any time in its history and more than any other nation in the world, with a war in Iraq nearly won, and both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein gone and replaced with constitutional governments ó and Europe, whether in France, Germany, or Italy, with strong pro-American leadership.

No one would infer that after our enemies blew a 16-acre crater in New York and attacked the Pentagon ó and promised lots more to come ó we have not been hit since, but in contrast, al Qaeda's leaders are either in hiding, scattered, imprisoned, or killed, with bin Laden and the tactic of suicide bombing with record low levels of support in the Middle East.

Obama's bottom line: our enemies are winning, AK-47s are ubiquitous in our streets, our economy is in depression, and gay people can't visit their dying partners in our hospitals. In short, "Hope and Change" has became gloom and doom and there is something for everybody from government to save us."

My hands are shaking at the thought of hitting the submit button. I'm not really sure that this is the place or the forum to share these thoughts but I do think that this is a vitally important election. I don't really post this to change anyones mind but I do hope that it will provoke thought.

vegaschristina
08-28-2008, 09:59 PM
I don't really post this to change anyones mind but I do hope that it will provoke thought.

I think that's why I continue to read this thread with such interest. To provoke my own thought process.

ashtina
08-28-2008, 10:17 PM
I think that's why I continue to read this thread with such interest. To provoke my own thought process.

same here :) none of this offends me. I'm just open to hearing different opinions and people's reasons for leaning one way or the other. I do not talk politics really, because I don't like to debate about it. I feel the way I feel and you feel the way you feel and we vote for who we feel best represents those beliefs. That is what I love about living in a democracy. We get to choose. We may not always choose the best candidate, we may sometimes regret our decisions, but we still got to decide. No one chose for us and for that I am thankful :)

thumper6423
08-29-2008, 03:05 AM
You know, I don't agree with either candidate 100%. I'm still very undecided. But, the one thing that bothers me as a military spouse is how Obama and his wife say how much they support our troops and their families, yet any time they talk about McCain and his service I hear "Yes, he served our country BUT......." That "but" that they put in there seems to put a negative spin on McCain's military service, and that bothers me. And I know the military is only one issue of so many in the election, but it's the one that puts food on our table and a roof over our heads, so it's a big one for me.

kjbstevens
08-29-2008, 03:50 AM
You know, I don't agree with either candidate 100%. I'm still very undecided. But, the one thing that bothers me as a military spouse is how Obama and his wife say how much they support our troops and their families, yet any time they talk about McCain and his service I hear "Yes, he served our country BUT......." That "but" that they put in there seems to put a negative spin on McCain's military service, and that bothers me. And I know the military is only one issue of so many in the election, but it's the one that puts food on our table and a roof over our heads, so it's a big one for me.

I agree with you. Even if people don't like the Iraq war I don't think it means we should just up and leave. Anytime we've been forced to pull out in history it seems like even worse stuff happens to the people. I'm not saying the US is the fixer at all because I'd say it's more of the other country stepping up to take care of themselves. As a serious question do people think Iraq will be better off if we just pull out and leave them to take care of themselves? I wasn't for the war to start with but it would just show a really bad side of the US to pick up and leave to me without making sure they were going to thrive first. Without them thriving that does put us at risk. I'd much rather help them find success and in the long run have a friend in the area than pull out so they can get massacred again and start to hate us yet again. I think it would fuel more reason for people that already hate us to find more people to not like us and potential make my children's future less secure. I'm very pro security though. I really think if we could secure our country by stabilizing Iraq and stopping illegal immigration so that everyone paid taxes into the system then we could do some of these universal programs that Obama talks about and they'd help people. I just think things have to be a little different first to end all of this spending first and make sure than everyone is giving in instead of many that are able to just take. His plans can work. I just don't see them working in the current US situation which is the main reason even as much promise I can see in him that I feel it would be setting up things for failure. The immigration just doesn't seem to be a big issue since they both have about the same stance though. I welcome everyone. Just pay your taxes. :)

txmusicmom
08-29-2008, 05:21 AM
*Bring home our troops from Iraq...like the Iraqis and most Americans want.

*Stop giving tax cuts to companies who ship jobs overseas.

*Stop spending our grandkids' grandkids' grandkids money like it's water.

*Preserve the rights of a woman to make choices about her own body and leave those choices between her, her doctor, and her God.

*Start making efforts to repair the economic damage done by spending billions of dollars in a war that was brought to us by way of lies and deceit.

*Begin to realistically fund research for alternative fuels.

*Find a way that everyone can access medical care.

*Repeal NCLB so that we're not teaching to the slowest child in the class but educating our children to be competitive in the increasingly global market where we are seriously behind in math and science.

I see lots of people saying Obama's for change, but what change? These issues are things he talks about in almost every speech, so listen to him with an open mind and realize that McCain is offering us nothing but more of the same. More tax cuts for the rich, while most struggle to feed their kids. More of oil executives getting record profits while we struggle to fill our gas tanks. Nuclear waste put into an unsafe repository 90 miles from my children's home but not safe enough to be trucked thru Arizona.

President Reagan was an amazing president and he asked us a question..."Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?"

So I'm asking McCain supporters...are you better off now than you were 8 years ago when Bush took office? Cause with McCain supporting Bush 95% of the time, that's what we'll be getting...4 more years of Bush's policies. Four more years of the rich getting richer. Four more years of an unstable economy. Four more years of under-educating our children. Four more years of lies.

How can he stop spending when he proposes more programs?

As far as most Americans wanting the troops home- that sure isn't the sentiments I mostly hear- interestingly enough- the MILITARY folks know the job is not done...... Do you really want to resurrect Hussein and put him back in power- the majority of Iraqis would say NO!

Lies and deceit? That one bothers me..........THe House and the Senate voted to go to war-- they had the same information that the White House had........and they each individually made that decision........I'm sure NO one dreamed it would be as long and as hard as it has been-- that area of the world has been under tyranny and fear for YEARS.....

You can bash Bush if you like......but that one thing bothers me the most- At his core- he is not a lier......he is not a politician at his core- he is a businessman....Ask the secret service guys who have worked with him at the White House and as governor of Texas........You might not agree with him and that is certainly fine.......he is not a deceitful person.

If he were, he would have always bowed ( bow...past tense) under the pressure--but he stands for what he thinks is right- you might not agree.....but you can't fault him for following his conscious.

And more of the same..........please.........give facts.......that is just jargon.....I don't mean that rudely- it's just easy to say-- but explain what you mean

TELL me something that Obama has accomplished as a senator.

And the age thing-- my dad is that age........he is still going strong- walks more than I ever think of........had heart bypass 2 years ago- wasn't sick with it- just had blockages........I don't anticipate his passing for quite a few years.......he has still got quiet a bit of life left in him....

One more thing-- Reagan was not popular about many of his decisions- but as we look back, he is honored as one of the best-- Tough guys have to make tough unpopular decisions........

Hugs to all..........I too love to hear what others are thinking and WHY.......NOthing I said is personal- just debating the issues.......

At the end of the day- we're all digiscrappers-- hee hee

DOnna

Heather Manning
08-29-2008, 05:52 AM
How can he stop spending when he proposes more programs?

As far as most Americans wanting the troops home- that sure isn't the sentiments I mostly hear- interestingly enough- the MILITARY folks know the job is not done...... Do you really want to resurrect Hussein and put him back in power- the majority of Iraqis would say NO!

Lies and deceit? That one bothers me..........THe House and the Senate voted to go to war-- they had the same information that the White House had........and they each individually made that decision........I'm sure NO one dreamed it would be as long and as hard as it has been-- that area of the world has been under tyranny and fear for YEARS.....

You can bash Bush if you like......but that one thing bothers me the most- At his core- he is not a lier......he is not a politician at his core- he is a businessman....Ask the secret service guys who have worked with him at the White House and as governor of Texas........You might not agree with him and that is certainly fine.......he is not a deceitful person.

If he were, he would have always bowed ( bow...past tense) under the pressure--but he stands for what he thinks is right- you might not agree.....but you can't fault him for following his conscious.

And more of the same..........please.........give facts.......that is just jargon.....I don't mean that rudely- it's just easy to say-- but explain what you mean

TELL me something that Obama has accomplished as a senator.

And the age thing-- my dad is that age........he is still going strong- walks more than I ever think of........had heart bypass 2 years ago- wasn't sick with it- just had blockages........I don't anticipate his passing for quite a few years.......he has still got quiet a bit of life left in him....

One more thing-- Reagan was not popular about many of his decisions- but as we look back, he is honored as one of the best-- Tough guys have to make tough unpopular decisions........

Hugs to all..........I too love to hear what others are thinking and WHY.......NOthing I said is personal- just debating the issues.......

At the end of the day- we're all digiscrappers-- hee hee

DOnna

I agree with you. Very well put. Especially about Reagan.

rainbowkitty
08-29-2008, 06:18 AM
I believe that Ivf is imperfect but neccessary for many women desperate to become mothers. I do not want to overturn RvW. I just want to see major changes. I want abortion as a form of birth control outlawed.
As for Ivf I have two beautiful siblings both conceived through IVF. I watched my step mom suffer for many years, desperately wanting children with my dad and unable to conceive. After 15 years they had a healthy boy and then later a beautiful girl. I am so happy for her. She's an amazing woman and a wonderful mother. They have left over embryos and are currently debating what to do with them, and in the end they will probably try one more time.
Yes I take a moral highground on the abortion issue, but as I stated I am not for a total overturning of the laws. In the end, God will be these women's judges not me. And all sin is forgivable through Christ. I believe this too.
As I said before I want major changes. Changes I do not think Obama will bring about unfortunately. It sickens me that he voted against protecting babies who are born alive. I may have to rethink my canidate. While I very much want a candidate who will stand up and fight for gay rights, children's rights are so much more important. Because if we do not protect them who will.
I am glad for this forum and a chance to talk it out.

Tiffikat
08-29-2008, 06:56 AM
I am 110% FOR Obama. As far as I know the new programs Obama wants to add will replace current programs which are not working. This doesn't sound like it will add much more in cost. Reforming or Repealing NCLB alone will give Obama budget money to work with and use in a better way. No need to add to taxes. I think the biggest tax change is supposed to be the end of tax cuts for the top 10% which I am all for.

I am terrified of what schools will be like if McCain gets into office and leaves NCLB in place. I also would hate to live in a world where a woman's choice is taken from her.

On the abortion topic I personally would never have an abortion. However, that does not mean that I have the right to say what another woman's choice should be and honestly anyone that thinks they do have the right to say what another woman can do with her body should get over themselves in my opinion. I'm not directing that to anyone here I haven't read the entire post so please no one think I am talking about you specifically. Also, on this same topic McCain's stances show that he wants to support upper class children for the most part but nothing about helping lower income children. I believe it is extremely hypocritical for anyone to say they are pro-life while the child is unborn and then care less about the child once they are born. Until we as a country take better care of the children that are here it is ridiculous to bring more possibly unwanted children into the world.

/off my soapbox now

Tiffikat
08-29-2008, 07:04 AM
BTW Rainbowkitty you may want to look into that vote of his more carefully.
Here is some information I found after googling for a minute:
Obama Said He Would Have Supported Federal Born-Alive Legislation. The Chicago Tribune reported, “Obama said that had he been in the US Senate two years ago, he would have voted for the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, even though he voted against a state version of the proposal. The federal version was approved; the state version was not. Both measures required that if a fetus survived an abortion procedure, it must be considered a person. Backers argued it was necessary to protect a fetus if it showed signs of life after being separated from its mother…the difference between the state and federal versions, Obama explained, was that the state measure lacked the federal language clarifying that the act would not be used to undermine Roe vs. Wade.” [Chicago Tribune, 10/4/04]

http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/08/19/fact_check_born_alive_1.php

I think it is important that absolutely none of us take everything we hear from others as fact. If something would cause you to vote for or against one of the candidates I encourage you to clearly research the issue in as many ways as possible. Please make sure you are not letting propaganda and half-truths cause you to vote for or against a candidate. Please make sure you are as informed as possible about each candidates stances on all of the issues and make a balanced decision, one not based upon rumors, commercials, and propaganda.

Chreamps
08-29-2008, 07:15 AM
Also, since Bush was a businessman, here's (http://alaric3rh.home.sprynet.com/science/bceo.html) a brief overview of how "successful" he was at it.

ETA: Also, this article (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E5DD1E31F934A35754C0A9649C8B 63).

AmyM Designs
08-29-2008, 07:23 AM
BTW Rainbowkitty you may want to look into that vote of his more carefully.
Here is some information I found after googling for a minute:
Obama Said He Would Have Supported Federal Born-Alive Legislation. The Chicago Tribune reported, “Obama said that had he been in the US Senate two years ago, he would have voted for the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, even though he voted against a state version of the proposal. The federal version was approved; the state version was not. Both measures required that if a fetus survived an abortion procedure, it must be considered a person. Backers argued it was necessary to protect a fetus if it showed signs of life after being separated from its mother…the difference between the state and federal versions, Obama explained, was that the state measure lacked the federal language clarifying that the act would not be used to undermine Roe vs. Wade.” [Chicago Tribune, 10/4/04]

http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/08/19/fact_check_born_alive_1.php

I think it is important that absolutely none of us take everything we hear from others as fact. If something would cause you to vote for or against one of the candidates I encourage you to clearly research the issue in as many ways as possible. Please make sure you are not letting propaganda and half-truths cause you to vote for or against a candidate. Please make sure you are as informed as possible about each candidates stances on all of the issues and make a balanced decision, one not based upon rumors, commercials, and propaganda.

I think we all need to read that a little more closely? Perhaps the part about the bills having identical language. He would have voted for one, but not for the other- which were identical???? He's had to backtrack a few times and come up with a couple different reasons as to why he wouldn't vote to protect a child born alive separate from its mother after a botched abortion. Either way you look at it and for whatever reason he comes up with, the language was identical. So take that for whatever it's worth. Here's another "fact check" link which is probably close to the same as the other. It's more clear when you read the whole issue instead of just a paragraph so hopefully we will all take the time to click on the links and read the whole thing.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html
And here's my choice of paragraph from the article
We find that, as the NRLC said in a recent statement, Obama voted in committee against the 2003 state bill that was nearly identical to the federal act he says he would have supported. Both contained identical clauses saying that nothing in the bills could be construed to affect legal rights of an unborn fetus, according to an undisputed summary written immediately after the committee's 2003 mark-up session.

Tiffikat
08-29-2008, 07:32 AM
What you posted when read clearly does not go against what I said though it does mention some debate in the language and "though the "neutrality clause" was identical in the federal and state bills, there were other minor wording differences elsewhere."
Check out the table posted on the link I posted for the differences. I cannot get it to post properly here.

Regardless, this is not the only reason I am voting for Obama and I hope that everyone here will do their own research at a variety of websites and other sources before deciding what they believe.

Also, ETA, I'm not really here to debate this. I don't enjoy debates over all because it just isn't in my personality. I don't really like conflict. I just wanted to post my thoughts on a few issues mentioned.

frani_54
08-29-2008, 08:29 AM
I watched Obama's speech last night. I found him uplifting and a great cheerleader. I also listened to his vision of what he wants to do for the country some good and some not so good. I love the idea of not giving business tax breaks if they take their business out of the country. We need less of that, but in the same sense lets give them some incentive to want to do business here in the states.

Education, lets just trash the current system and just get back to basics....most of our kids can't even read write nor do basic math. Let's get our teachers the tools they need instead of mandating programs that are not working and we have no funds to pay for. Actually we do, but again the way it's distributed it doesn't get used for teaching, it's used to pay the executives and administration instead of getting directly to the kids.

Again he's a great speaker and wants to do alot, but words are just words if not put into action.....is he sincere, time will tell....will I vote for him....NO....his record speaks for itself.

rainbowkitty
08-29-2008, 08:34 AM
I have made no final decision. I said I needed to learn more about it, which is my plan. I still do not know who I will vote for.

Julie
08-29-2008, 09:04 AM
Education, lets just trash the current system and just get back to basics....most of our kids can't even read write nor do basic math. Let's get our teachers the tools they need instead of mandating programs that are not working and we have no funds to pay for. Actually we do, but again the way it's distributed it doesn't get used for teaching, it's used to pay the executives and administration instead of getting directly to the kids.

Definitely! The current system is definitely not working. My niece just went to 6th grade, and she is definitely going to have to struggle to even just get by. She was in no way, shape or form ready to move on. DD even went to the school and asked to have her held back, but that wasn't an option. She spent her entire summer in reading camp and math camp, and she's still not ready to be in the 6th grade. But we had no choice but to move her on. It was either that or home school her, and my sister, unfortunately, would not be a good home school mom. Something has to be done and be done soon, because dn can't be the only one in this situation.

Sara Ellis
08-29-2008, 09:29 AM
I think the No Child Left Behind is hurting lots of kids.... it is helping some of those that are having issues........ but it is definitely hurting the ones that are excelling, especially in elementary schools because they have to spend more time on the ones that need help instead of offering more tools to the ones that are advancing beyond their current levels

Gina.Maria
08-29-2008, 09:37 AM
I honestly don't believe that a politician's voting record is an accurate portrayal of his or her ideals. The main problem with using voting records to prove or disprove a candidate's authenticity is that most bills are riddled with language that can be argued in ways that twist the bill's intent and they're saddled with addendums that make the initial proposal repugnant even to it's original sponsors. Education funding bills get all kinds of add-ons that force representatives to vote against them and then opponents say they're against funding education. In the example cited earlier, the state and federal bills were "nearly" identical and the original poster even quoted that but also vehemently stated that the bills were identical. Nearly is not the same as exactly. Not by a long shot. One word can make a world of difference and sometimes that's all it takes for a person of intelligence and integrity to do the unpopular thing. I'm also not swayed by any suggestions that McCain has voted with Bush 95% of the time because most congressional representatives vote with the president, regardless of political party. Statistics can be twisted to suit any view, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.

shoebootie
08-29-2008, 09:38 AM
Amen to that!! That's why we pay for private school for our DD. Our daughter just started Kindergarten. She's been reading since she was 3. (People can't believe she reads 4 and 5 syllable words.) She's doing simple addition and subtraction and DH has been teaching her the multiplication tables. lol There is now way public school is going to help her.

I think the No Child Left Behind is hurting lots of kids.... it is helping some of those that are having issues........ but it is definitely hurting the ones that are excelling, especially in elementary schools because they have to spend more time on the ones that need help instead of offering more tools to the ones that are advancing beyond their current levels

Chreamps
08-29-2008, 09:54 AM
Since Pro-Life and Pro-Choice have been very prevalent throughout this thread, I found this (http://www.blogher.com/podcast-planned-parenthoods-cecile-richards-spoke-suzanne-reisman-about-reproductive-rights) to be very interesting.

Excerpt from the article:

However, as the Reproductive Rights Law Profs (http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/reproductive_rights/2008/06/poll-support-fo.html) report, when women learned that John McCain does not, in fact, support access to birth control or abortion, they changed their stance on supporting his candidacy. Translation: when people feel threatened, reproductive rights seems to become a priority issue for women.

Can anyone show me where this is stated as being true, especially the part "does not, in fact, support access to birth control..."?

~ashleigh
08-29-2008, 12:01 PM
Here's an interesting site (http://www.progressohio.org/page/s/mccainwaronwomen), Chris. I hope it answers some questions.

Kim2002
08-29-2008, 12:14 PM
I think the No Child Left Behind is hurting lots of kids.... it is helping some of those that are having issues........ but it is definitely hurting the ones that are excelling, especially in elementary schools because they have to spend more time on the ones that need help instead of offering more tools to the ones that are advancing beyond their current levels

This is definitely the case in our school district, at least at the elementary level. They currently only have an advanced reading program and, even that, is done in the classroom on a case-by-case basis. My son, and a friend of his, are quite ahead of their peers. My son is ahead in math and his friend is way ahead in reading. Both of them were taken aside from the rest of the class and given advanced reading materials. But my son was not once challenged more in the areas of science and math which is where he excels. I asked the teacher about it and she said the school district teaches to the lowest learning child in the class and does not teach advanced concepts to those who are accelerated (aside from the extra reading). Ugh.

Sara Ellis
08-29-2008, 12:36 PM
This is definitely the case in our school district, at least at the elementary level. They currently only have an advanced reading program and, even that, is done in the classroom on a case-by-case basis. My son, and a friend of his, are quite ahead of their peers. My son is ahead in math and his friend is way ahead in reading. Both of them were taken aside from the rest of the class and given advanced reading materials. But my son was not once challenged more in the areas of science and math which is where he excels. I asked the teacher about it and she said the school district teaches to the lowest learning child in the class and does not teach advanced concepts to those who are accelerated (aside from the extra reading). Ugh.


that is too sad, Kim..... I just don't understand it.......
it's kind of like how they are taking our old fun field days at the end of the school years away from the kids too........... now everyone participates in group activities and everyone gets the same ribbons instead of true competitions like relay races and three legged races with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc ribbons...... too afraid of hurting one child's feelings instead of preparing them what the real world and sports are really like

Chreamps
08-29-2008, 12:40 PM
Well, in our district there are programs for the "gifted" children who excel and for the below average students. My son, is an average student and I think if I didn't push for help with his grades, he would become a below average student. So, yes, we do need a total redo on our education system.

AmyM Designs
08-29-2008, 12:48 PM
This is my first year within the public school system. First week actually, and I'm already starting to regret it. I'm really disheartened that due to No Child Left Behind and a bunch of other laws, those who are fortunate enough to have a child performing way above average are completely ignored. I'm not downing the teachers, they're just doing their jobs and doing the best they can do. But what happens is, they teach what's going to be on the tests and spend time on the kids who need help just making standards and then have no time left for other kids like mine who are forced to sit and twiddle their thumbs in boredom. Where we live there is no AG program until 3rd grade. It's really sad what public education has come to. I'm giving it one month to see if my daughter can learn just one single new thing, and if she doesn't....we homeschool until we can afford private school again. Yet another thing that more government rules and regulations (meant to improve the situation) have made worse. Ugh. And I'm in total shock about all the politically correct crap going on in the classroom. No reading out loud because we're afraid to "single a child out". What the heck? I just don't agree with all this new theory in teaching. Although I do still respect the teachers, they are never paid what they are worth which is sooooooo very much!
There is no perfect candidate, that's for sure.

mama_pajama
08-29-2008, 03:20 PM
I don't understand what is going on in all of these schools you are describing! I'm on a LOA right now, but when I was teaching, we were NOT allowed to teach to the lowest or even the average kids. Part of the deal with NCLB is that students can't just do well on standardized tests, but they have to keep improving their performance each year. I had a colleague who was reprimanded because her students only improved by an average of 3 percentage points while they were in her class, because the goal was 5 percentage points. So even though her students' scores improved, they didn't improve enough. That goes for the highest as well as the lowest students, they are all expected to get better scores each year.

We have a district wide program that concentrates on teaching to all levels within the classroom and challenging the kids who need to be challenged. I completely disagree with NCLB for many reasons, but I don't think it can totally be blamed for this. It sounds like a lot of districts are dropping the ball and their test scores will probably reflect that.

Divian
08-29-2008, 06:03 PM
The school system in my area is a good one. My oldest was placed in the gifted program in 2nd grade and is still in the gifted class in 4th grade. My 1st grade son was tested and is 3 lessons away (after being in school only 3 weeks) from being placed in a second grade reading class. I know the school system varies by state as well. But I like the fact that when a child is ahead of his class, they are given opportunities to advance. In kindergarten, my son tested 22% above his classmates and was placed in a special session while the other children went over their lessons. I even sent materials for him to his teacher which were more challenging and she greeted me with open arms in receipt of them. I also challenged him at home with more advanced learning materials to keep him learning and more entertained until he qualifies age-wise to enter the gifted program in my area...which should be next year.

Also, in high school, students who test above average in my district are offered special 'AP' or college prep classes. Instead of regular history, english, etc classes, they were placed in advanced classes. There are even advanced art, band and other extracurricular activites that have a more advanced option for the faster learners and advanced students. I feel as though the schools in my area are doing it right, even though we are in a state with low test scores overall.

There are those who are slower/average learners then others and require a slower/average paced learning curriculum and the same chances to learn and grow as their more 'gifted'/advanced peers... just at different paces. I also feel that active parenting is necessary in cases when children are not being challenged enough. I monitor my children's education and if I feel as though they are being neglected in any area, I contact the teacher, send materials, and also speak with the teachers, principal and counselors about the best methods for my kids. I also pick up the slack at home and print out educational materials on a more challenging level as well as introduce my little 'gamers' to educational games that are 1-2 grades higher than what they are currently in. It really helps.

frani_54
08-29-2008, 07:09 PM
okay guys, between this thread the other thread and the heat I have not got any scrapping done, but I have to say I've been
Intellectually challenged for sure.