What's the difference between: S4O, S4H, and Commercial Use?

[bttrflygrl]

Can someone clarify these three terms for me? When reading the threads listing S4H friendly etc. designers, I see that some allow "S4H without permission" AND offer Commercial Use items as well. I thought those were the same. And how does S4O differ from S4H? I'm getting my invite biz off the ground and it's important that I understand these terms. Thanks!

[Just Plain Kristi]

Scrapping and crafting for others is in a different category than commercial use. I think commercial implies making more digi products to mass market to scrapbookers or to design commercial websites and stuff. The Pro-designer market is different because we're small scale and generally speaking deliver our product in a flattened jpeg or printed form. Clear as mud?

we have a whole forum for networking together and discussing professional issues, copyrights, etc. Come on by and join (http://digid4o.com/forums/index.php)...we'd love to have your input!

kaylaugh...miraculously all caught up on Christmas gifts and seeking clients!

[Inkspots]

What is S4H? Is that hire? This has me a bit confused as well, as SP has some "commercial use" cards, I'd assume those would fall under scrapping for others rather than for digital designers. (Although, I guess looking at it now, if you're doing stuff for others, you're still "digitally designing.) I really like how Designer Digitals has their site set up, with being able to purchase both options--personal and "photographer's license/ S4O", I think Little Dreamer does too. Makes it so much simplier and less confusing.

[bttrflygrl]

Thanks! I'll have to check out your forum and jump in with some of my questions. I'm curious - do you consider invitations to be commercial use? My biz would be very local in nature (word of mouth, friends of friends, etc., and consist primarily of children's bday invites.

[bttrflygrl]

I really like how Designer Digitals has their site set up, with being able to purchase both options--personal and "photographer's license/ S4O"

Yes, but it's still somewhat limited and I'm not totally clear if invitations are considered "stationary", which DD prohibits even with the photographers' license. See below--

From the DD Photographers' license terms...

"This license does NOT allow for the sale of templates created with these products or resale of ANY of the kit contents, brushes, elements or alphabets as scrapbooking products, stationary or any other commercial use other than in completed layouts or photographs for others."

I've been meaning to write to DD asking them specifically about invites, but I think I'm afraid they'll say no, LOL!

Thoughts?

[bttrflygrl]

To be honest, I find the whole "TOU" area to be very murky. Some designers say they don't require any permission at all, yet when I go to their stores, their actual TOU state otherwise. Add to that the clause stating that "terms can be changed at any time without notice" seems a wacky to me. Why would I buy something that is S4O friendly if there's a chance the designer might change her mind down the road? I absolutely love all of the work I see out there and respect the unbelievable talent of these designers. But the business side of things really needs to be streamlined imo. I know many think this is unrealistic, but some kind of set of standards for TOU (ie, official definition of terms) would give great peace-of-mind to those of us who want to "follow the rules."

Whew! Stepping off my soapbox now! All this banter about TOU's makes a girl want to take a stab and designing her own stuff!!! Oy vey!

[Inkspots]

Yes, but it's still somewhat limited and I'm not totally clear if invitations are considered "stationary", which DD prohibits even with the photographers' license. See below--

From the DD Photographers' license terms...

"This license does NOT allow for the sale of templates created with these products or resale of ANY of the kit contents, brushes, elements or alphabets as scrapbooking products, stationary or any other commercial use other than in completed layouts or photographs for others."

I've been meaning to write to DD asking them specifically about invites, but I think I'm afraid they'll say no, LOL!

Thoughts?

Hmm, I hadn't noticed that before. I would think invitations would be OK in that they're for a specific date and such, rather than say note cards that wouldn't have to be customized or notepads with just a repeated design. KWIM?

I agree that it is all confusing. Maybe designers need to get together and come up with just 3-4 TOUs to suit different situations. ;) I think I read somewhere that you go by the TOU that comes with the kit you buy. If they change it in the future, you're still OK. Otherwise I think it would be their responsibility to notify you for who's to say you ever go back to their site to buy anything else?

[DebF]

my understanding (as much as that is worth ;) ) is that S4O and S4H are pretty much the same - you are selling your services to scrap for people who can't/won't.

commercial lets in a whole lot of other stuff - and possibly even mass production. I highly recommend the article at Jen's site where the terms "commercial use" and professional use are discussed from a legal point of view (http://www.jenstrange.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=17&id=42&Itemid=130)

my own Angel Use policy specifically allows professional crafters to use my product to create custom invitations which include the customers own details and/or photos (not blank ones). The difficulty in all these TOUs is that different designers will think different things are ok (or not) and then try to include all the options in each TOU - makes them very long and complicated, but trying to cover all bases. And we can't think of every single thing that might legitimately be done with our product, so try to cover ourselves for new usages that may arise in the future.

and it makes my head hurt too :)

[bttrflygrl]

custom invitations which include the customers own details and/or photos (not blank ones)

Thanks, Deb! This makes sense to me and I think it is what differentiates invites from stationary. I'll definitely check out Jen's site. That chick's blog includes everything AND the kitchen sink, doesn't it!!??!! LOL!

[DebF]

I :wub Jen - she's a gem

[Heather Manning]

Ok, for me and my business, this is what it means -

S4H is your scrapper who scraps for others - They deliver a flattened image, the customer they make it for has no access to the full kit, etc. (And for me your invitations would fall under this.) I allow small business S4H with all of my products. (When I say small, I mean something out of your home, etc - not someone who is going to have a kiosk set up in their gift shop where people can pick a quickpage, plop their picture in it, and call it S4H. and that is stated in my TOU.)

My Designer Tools (Commercial use items) are for the designer (or S4H - I know they use them too.) They are able to use my Designer Tools and work it into their own creations. They can't do this with my kits, elements, etc that are personal use only.

Am I being clear as mud also? LOL I think that is how most designers look at it.

[Haley64]

Wow I still don't have my bases covered! Guess I didn't understand how S4O products were being used as at home business mass producing products for others. About a year ago I was buying commerical use for that reason!! Off to write up yet another S4H TOU! :(

Kay I will be visiting your site! :)

There Heather was writing as I was typing and I ditto her!

[Just Plain Kristi]

The difficulty in all these TOUs is that different designers will think different things are ok (or not) and then try to include all the options in each TOU - makes them very long and complicated, but trying to cover all bases. And we can't think of every single thing that might legitimately be done with our product, so try to cover ourselves for new usages that may arise in the future.

Actually, as much as it is a headache and a royal pain to try to cover all those bases, it's the very short and generic tou's that don't address anything specific at all and just say 'personal use only' and 'contact me with questions' that are giving me a headache. Check out my blog post (http://kaylaugh.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/an-open-letter-to-digital-scrapbooking-kit-designers/) about it if you really want to hear my soap box speech...lol. I like specificity...beats trying to contact 400 different designers! Honestly, I'm about to finish tagging my entire stash and I'm wondering how much of that time I wasted on products I may end up dumping anyway. I am going to be phasing out the personal use only stuff as I go along and have already stopped purchasing such products. The thrifty shopper in me wants to contact all those designers before dumping anything just in case they might change or clarify their terms...lol!

My other chief headache right now is collaboration kits!

kaylaugh

[FrenchRuby]

If it's any consolation, designers talk about this all the time, we don't really understand it either :)

In my opinion/understanding:

S4O = Scrapping for Others. May be done for free (as in doing a book for your sister to give to your Mum for Christmas) , this is actually often covered by a Personal Use licence anyway, or remunerated, almost always NOT covered by Personal Use licence.

S4H = Scrapping for Hire. Making scrap layouts, books, etc for other people and getting paid for it. Always needs a S4H licence, if in doubt, ask the designer.


Commercial Use = For use in a business. Different designers mean different things with this term, and as Jen has pointed out it's a dangerous term to use without careful consideration of what it means.

Designer Tool = OK for use by other designers to create stuff to sell.

All my stuff is S4O/S4H friendly, ie that kind of work is covered in the standard licence. As long as what you sell your customer is delivered flattened and they can't pull the kit or parts of it out to use for other things, you can use my kits to make stuff for sale. Only other provisos are you can't make and sell more than 200 of the same thing using my kit, you can't sell individual bits of the kit as discrete products (they have to be used to create something, not just sold on) and you can't sell or share the kit or it's parts to/with anyone. I ask for credit on posted layouts, but it is a request not a directive, and you don't have to credit me on any work you do for others (such as a S4H scrapbook).

My Designer Tools you can use for whatever you want and you don't have to give credit.

But see how complicated it is even with what I consider to be amongst the most relaxed TOUs in the market? It's a minefield, I wish the Creative Commons still had that derivative licence, it was very useful for this kind of thing.

[kutnkudly]

I think the easiest way to look at it (and this is just my opinion of it) is this:

S4O/S4H: creating scrapbooks/pages for others for pay or not, delivering a flattened image/page.
Commercial use: creating digital items for kits for sale, creating invitations, websites etc for pay.

Basically if you aren't creating a scrapbook or pages for pay then I would think it would fall in the commercial use line.

Just my thoughts on it.

[Roberta]

I am one of those confusing designers that is both S4O and S4H (as well as crafters and photographer) friendly with my Angel Policy in my TOU AND offers commercial products. The basic difference is that the scrappers, crafter, and photographers are distributing a flattened completed project and this is OK (with volume restrictions) with my TOU. My commercial products are created for persons that want to distribute digital files and basically compete with me. For that, they must purchase the more expensive commerical versions of my products.

Did that help?

[Inkspots]

Why would custom invitations fall under "commercial" rather than S4O/H? To me an invitation is no different than a page or book. Now I suppose I can see the difference if you had invitation templates. . . hmmmm. I guess I've just not gotten to that point and do all the invites differently to suit the client's needs.

[Roberta]

Why would custom invitations fall under "commercial" rather than S4O/H? To me an invitation is no different than a page or book. Now I suppose I can see the difference if you had invitation templates. . . hmmmm. I guess I've just not gotten to that point and do all the invites differently to suit the client's needs.

They wouldn't for my TOU. It would be a professional crafter/scrapper use as long as they were distributed flattened and printed and not digitally.

[kutnkudly]

I guess the way I have always just looked at it, was that if it wasn't 'scrapbooking' related, it was commercial. Never thought of it as a 'flattened image' etc. If I needed invitations for something, wedding etc, I never would have gone to a scrapbooking store to get them, I ordered mine through the local printing store when I had them (yeah, over 20 years ago..lol). Guess more has changed over in those years.

Guess I need to relook at this as well, cuz to me, in my custom scrapbook service, it's just that, scrapbook. I never thought of doing invites etc, figured someone else had that clientele in their photography or printing business.

[Inkspots]

I get asked to do invites all the time. I've done photo cards, folded cards, printed half pages. I was a stamper, still am really, before scrapping so I've seen this as no different than that to a degree.

[kelmichaels]

god, I am confused all over again. Seriously. And overwhelmed with this all.

[AliSarah]

For me, S4O is a gift you make for someone and you don't charge them for it...

S4H is a layout or anything customized and personalized delivered in flat jpg format or printed form to ONE customer for their use...

CU/Designer tools are for people who want to sell to more than one person the items they create with the items they have purchased...

Example, if I make a book for my sister in law as a Christmas gift, I can make it with pretty much anything I have in my stash. If I sell a custom memory book to one parent at my daughters school, I need to use S4H ok stuff to make it. If I get hired to do a yearbook for my elementary aged child's class, I should use CU stuff to make it. If I'm going to be creating digital kits to sell to you, I should also use CU/designer tools to make it!

I would think that invites are S4H because you are selling that invite to only one person and it is personalized for their party only... Blank invites a person could buy and personalize themselves would be CU because you could sell it to more than one person... :D Does that make sense??

Huggles!!
~Sarah~

[kelmichaels]

yes, it does makes sense. I just get tired of reading through the tou's ALSO that goes along with all the acronymns. I am just afraid to make the wrong move and get a designer upset for something that I thought I was doing right. I must be in a bad mood, lol, cuz this really shouldn't be upsetting. I just wanna design my pages and not worry about the if's, and's or but's. I realize if I am doing this as a biz I need to worry about it but there are so many different exceptions and definations, etc which is confusing.
There's my 2 cents worth!

[KimGuymon]

I agree that most TOU are very confusing. For every base you think you cover, another situation comes up. I finally just laid out what I wanted to do here and several very helpful designers PM'd me and said I could use their kits for what I wanted to do. It fell somewhere between commercial use and S4H.

[jaguarwoman]

I'm coming to this discussion very late, I just happened upon the post and it's something I struggle with all the time.

I come to scrapbooking from the perspective of someone who's creating original resources . . .like digitally painted flowers, for example. Or other rendered elements that are somewhat complex to produce. For me the difference between "commercial use" and "personal use" is very simple. If I sell a design resource to someone and they use it to make something which they sell to someone else, it's commercial. If they are using my products to create a derivative design which they then sell or are paid to create, it's commercial and there are really no other considerations for me. "Personal use" means there is just use in someone's personal life, in their home, for their family and friends. There is nothing created with the design resources that is offered for sale in any way. Commercial versus personal. It's just an either or thing to me.

And in the world I've operated in professionally, this is actually the definition we (digital artists) live with. This is what we understand by "commercial use". There's so complex counting or weighing of what someone does with the resources or how much or how little they made. Just this: did they put the resources into some form which they offered for sale?

Now . . .having said that, I tear my hair out trying to explain my TOU to scrapbookers all day, every day. I feel like we come from different galaxies or something and it generates a lot of tension I don't like. But I'm not sure why our minds are so far apart. It is not just me, it seems to be similar for other digital artists I know who paint or render original design resources.

The other big source of problems in TOUs for scrappers has been the "no resale or redistribution" rule, which has been apparently almost impossible for scrappers to undrerstand in the same terms that I/we understand it. I have licensed a whole lot of products commercially but never with the intention that they could be resold in their original condition, only that they could be USED as a design resource to create derivative products for commercial sale. I never imagined in a million years that many scrappers would read "Commercial Use" and think that meant that they could simply repackage the exact files, in their original png and psd file formats, into new zipfiles, call it a scrapkit, and resell all those resources under another name, without ever employing them in any design of their own. I have found dozens/hundreds of scrapkit designers doing that and arguing that they were right, that is what "commercial use" means: they buy the resources, they get to do what they want with it. I have no idea why, but it is only in this specific area where I find this problem of resale. So I'm thinking it is really a clash of perceptions or something. I realize a lot of people don't think they are doing anything wrong, I know that nobody wants to get in trouble with a designer. But to me it's really clear what "no resale" means. At least it's absolutely understood in the world I've been operating in. I have no idea why the concept is so hard to convey.

So . . .a lot of times, there are many efforts to rewrite TOUs in an endless, desperate effort to clarify what these terms like "Commercial Use" means, what "no resale/no redistribution" means. Clearly, everybody does not do not speak the same language, LOL. In my world, we all know what "Commercial Use" and "no resale" means. Step into another social domain where people have different experience, and they may not know what you mean by that.

And there are also other language things that have really confounded me lots of times. I've been told by scrapbookers that if they license/buy my work and make something with it and then sell it to someone else for personal use . . .that means they are using my work for "personal use" only. They're thinking "yeah, I'm selling it for personal use". But that's not "Personal Use" for me. From where I'm sitting, it's still Commercial Use of my product. I have not been able to understand this stand at all, but I've heard this thinking from at least 10 scrapkit makers. They might as well be talking Greek, I have no idea how to get on the same logic path.

Yes, TOUs are just a big can of worms. Especially if you actually sit down and paint or render every pixel of every product yourself. I do not know what the answer is.

[Just Plain Kristi]

Thank you do much for your point of view Dana...it really is astounding how difficult it is to get a clear understanding of what copyright means across to people...especially people who don't really want to understand it. (Such as those yahoo groups full of people taking layouts and just altering it slightly or added a quote to it then redistributing as an e-card. If you didn't create the layout from scratch, it's not yours to redistribute. If you did create it using designs that do not allow redistribution, then you still can't do it. Scrap for hire is about unique designs created for a single client, not mass distribution to a yahoogroup list!)

I also want to just propose to anyone considering selling kits made up of CU products...pretty much selling them 'as is'...what's the point? If you don't bring a sense of style, an artistic spin, a creative touch to your products then why are you trying to sell and call yourself a designer? This market is over saturated enough as it is without the addition of cookie-cutter scrapkits. Please, do yourself and the marketplace a favor and learn to make your own products. We want to see what YOU have to offer...what YOUR inner artist can create for us to purchase. Not how well you can package someone else's stuff. Please!

Kristi

[Jazz2000]

Thanks Dana & Sarah - I think that was pretty well explained.

This was being discussed on another forum & couple of questions came up - what about making a scrapbook to give to charity for them to auction??? I am making it as a gift - absolutely no money for me. But hopes that someone may donate/give money to the charity for it (or maybe no one will buy it). Would that fall under S4O, S4H or resale/redistributre? I don't the charity is actually selling it, putting it up for auction in hopes of a donation???

And a question regarding scrapbooks for adoption - not the albums scrapping about adoption but TO adopt. The propsective couple makes a scrap album to give to the agency for birth parents to look through. It is not actually a gift (yet) but can be if the birth mom picks them. But before that - there may be dozens or more people browsing them. Even though the parents would be receiving money, they might be receiving a baby. (I don't remember how the thread went, but this question did come up).

And bartering, not exchange of money, but exchange of services - S4H?

Am I being too nick-picky? or more confusing?

[Just Plain Kristi]

I did a donation to an auction but I donated my services showing a sample album and then the winner of the auction will send me pics to scrap the pages (my sister won! half of my sample pages were about her kids so I only have half an album to scrap...lol)

In paper scrapping the donation would clearly be s4o but since you're talking about an album of digital quick-pages, essentially, I don't know. Personally, I'd stick to CU or make the papers myself and use hybrid embellies (easier to tuck a pic behind a real ribbon, kwim?)

The adoption book is definitely s4o if you're not charging for it. I'm doing one for some friends as a gift. You can't control what the customer/client does with something once it's theirs (Doctrine of First Sale) so if they re-gift it or not isn't at issue. Hope that makes sense.

Kristi

[Scrapznbitz]

Thanks Dana & Sarah - I think that was pretty well explained.

This was being discussed on another forum & couple of questions came up - what about making a scrapbook to give to charity for them to auction??? I am making it as a gift - absolutely no money for me.

Designers make kits for charity events regularly where the proceeds of the sale go to the charity. To my way of thinking, making a scrapbook for a charity for them to auction is really no different. The only thing I would ensure here is to cover myself with a S4H licence, even though no money changes hands. If the kit you use does not have one, then a courtesy email to the designer will usually be enough for them to say "Yes, no problem". I know I would have no problems with this.

And a question regarding scrapbooks for adoption - not the albums scrapping about adoption but TO adopt. The propsective couple makes a scrap album to give to the agency for birth parents to look through. It is not actually a gift (yet) but can be if the birth mom picks them. But before that - there may be dozens or more people browsing them. Even though the parents would be receiving money, they might be receiving a baby. (I don't remember how the thread went, but this question did come up).

And bartering, not exchange of money, but exchange of services - S4H?

Am I being too nick-picky? or more confusing?

I am not as clear as to what you are getting at here, but....

1. If I was pregnant and making a scrap album about myself for an adoption agency to show to prospective parents (a portfolio so to speak) which would eventually go to the new parents of the baby, then this to me is not S4H as it will become a gift from me to the baby's new parents and ultimately the baby

2. If I was asked to make an album by a woman who was pregnant for an adoption agency to show to prospective parents which would eventually go to the new parents, then this would be S4H. I would expect payment for my work because the contract would be between me and the mother. After that she would be free to make a gift of it if she wished.

I hope this helps

[prettyingreen]

wow this is making my head spin...

[11nomee]

To be honest, I find the whole "TOU" area to be very murky. Some designers say they don't require any permission at all, yet when I go to their stores, their actual TOU state otherwise. Add to that the clause stating that "terms can be changed at any time without notice" seems a wacky to me. Why would I buy something that is S4O friendly if there's a chance the designer might change her mind down the road? I absolutely love all of the work I see out there and respect the unbelievable talent of these designers. But the business side of things really needs to be streamlined imo. I know many think this is unrealistic, but some kind of set of standards for TOU (ie, official definition of terms) would give great peace-of-mind to those of us who want to "follow the rules."

Whew! Stepping off my soapbox now! All this banter about TOU's makes a girl want to take a stab and designing her own stuff!!! Oy vey!

I also started my invitation S4H and S4O last summer. I went about emailing all of the designers whos kits I was interested in using or possible use. What I found to be common is that S4H means you can scrap for hire (meaning charging someone) as long as you submit a flattened image jpeg pdf type of file to that person or if printing that it be less than that designers alotted amount (i found 100 was the avg some allow more). What they specify you cannot do is actually design a sort of template type of layout of an invite and continue to use that same layout for continuous sale. Pretty much you need to make sure all invites are customized in the way it's laid out.
At least thats what I gathered from emailing about 50 designers. and when they say no S4H allowed normally they offer the commercial use licenses in which pricing varies and depending on the designer can be for all of their kits or on a kit by kit basis.

[monkeyz1975]

I'm so confused...lol

[Scrapznbitz]

To me as a designer, my impression is that most people have difficulty grasping the concept of what is S4H and what is commercial usage.

You mention a couple of problems here and I hope that I can straighten them out from my point of view.

What they specify you cannot do is actually design a sort of template type of layout of an invite and continue to use that same layout for continuous sale. Pretty much you need to make sure all invites are customized in the way it's laid out.

1. If you are creating invitations for which you create a template that you repeatedly use, then that to me is the equivalent of using a normal scrapbooking template. It is a tool and not for resale and I would assume that you would have that template printed up and mounted in a portfolio that you can show your clients. So for me you creating a template of your invitation poses no problems whatsoever.

I also started my invitation S4H and S4O last summer. I went about emailing all of the designers whos kits I was interested in using or possible use. What I found to be common is that S4H means you can scrap for hire (meaning charging someone) as long as you submit a flattened image jpeg pdf type of file to that person or if printing that it be less than that designers alotted amount (i found 100 was the avg some allow more).

2. Some designers use an designated amount for printing (say 100 copies) which to me in today's world does not appear realistic. Let's use for example - a couple comes to you and asks you to create a set of invitations for their wedding (300 guests). This to me is not commercial use but rather S4H because you are creating a personalised set of invitations for ONE customer who is then going to fill in the names by hand and mail out. If on the other hand you were creating invitations on a bulk basis that were really quite generic (no mention of eg. Mr & Mrs Joe Bloggs cordially invite you to the wedding of their daughter Julia..... etc) and the parents and bride and groom were left blank, then this could be construed as commercial use because no matter how many you produce, you would be selling these on to someone else who would then add their markup and resell them. That to me is the difference between S4H and Commercial.

At least thats what I gathered from emailing about 50 designers. and when they say no S4H allowed normally they offer the commercial use licenses in which pricing varies and depending on the designer can be for all of their kits or on a kit by kit basis.

3. This one is a bit of a grey area I am afraid. I am only just sorting my shop out to accomodate S4H for customers and none of my kits are marked PU/S4H ok because I feel that it is only right that a small licence fee be applicable per kit purchased for S4H usage. (I have no intention of charging more than $5 as a token Photographers/S4H/S4O Licence fee). However I can also appreciate that buying lots of individual S4H licences for all the kits you would carry in stock can be a costly process especially when you are first starting out. For this reason I like other designers intend to offer a Single kit license as well as a multiple kit licence which when you purchase for example 5 plus kits, you would receive one license listing the names of the kits purchased at a reduced cost per licence ($15-$20) rather than 5 individual licences at the full $5/kit.

So many misconceptions exist about S4H and the TOU of many designers is nowhere near as comprehensive or self explanatory as it could be and this is why there is so much confusion caused for designers who S4H. I sure do wish there was some sort of industry standard for all TOU; PU/S4H and Commercial too.

I hope this helps

[ninie-bilimbis]

hi everybody...personaly, when i want to scrap for orhers, i read the tou and when i'm not sure, i prefer to send an email to the original designer to ask him or her...

[11nomee]

2. Some designers use an designated amount for printing (say 100 copies) which to me in today's world does not appear realistic. Let's use for example - a couple comes to you and asks you to create a set of invitations for their wedding (300 guests). This to me is not commercial use but rather S4H because you are creating a personalised set of invitations for ONE customer who is then going to fill in the names by hand and mail out. If on the other hand you were creating invitations on a bulk basis that were really quite generic (no mention of eg. Mr & Mrs Joe Bloggs cordially invite you to the wedding of their daughter Julia..... etc) and the parents and bride and groom were left blank, then this could be construed as commercial use because no matter how many you produce, you would be selling these on to someone else who would then add their markup and resell them. That to me is the difference between S4H and Commercial.


I think I mentioned this in my post, but this is what I found from SOME designers when reading their TOU's I used 100 as an example, but I also mentioned that it could be more depending on that designer.
Overall I gathered that anyones safest bet is to contact that Designer and specify which kit you are wishing to use and make sure that you're in the clear for the uses the designer intended. The information I posted was all generally speaking and based on responses from the designers I contacted personally regarding the invitations I was creating

[Scrapznbitz]

I think I mentioned this in my post, but this is what I found from SOME designers when reading their TOU's I used 100 as an example, but I also mentioned that it could be more depending on that designer.
Overall I gathered that anyones safest bet is to contact that Designer and specify which kit you are wishing to use and make sure that you're in the clear for the uses the designer intended. The information I posted was all generally speaking and based on responses from the designers I contacted personally regarding the invitations I was creating

I just love this thread - it is so full of questions that a designer could not envisage coming up in the normal use of their kits that it is a true eye opener as to what actually happens out there in the market place.

This thread is a fantastic learning curve for any designer wanting to break into the S4H market place. I think it is called "knowing what your customer needs" not what you think they need.

If ever you use any of my kits, please email me if you are unsure of anything. I welcome the feedback and will do all I can to help